Sarkozy's gaul

Deport Sarkozy and his clan to Hungary

There has been and continues to be a lot of talk about what government can do to include the Roma into society. No argument, that is a good and necessary strategy. But what have the Roma done to remove the stereotype and change their culture that is all too often rooted in crime?

It was good to hear Karel Schwarzenberg taking a mature statesmen like approach to issues that concern Europe in Paris. A credit to looking for soloutions and not inflaming sensitive issues.

Mr Sarkozy enters a period where his political life will rise or fall. The coming confrontations on union and labour laws, working hours, have been some two years in preparation. The political terms left/right are entering the point of confrontation that Mr Sarkozy was selected to do 'the job'. Galvanising support from the far right via the mass Roma deportations was a cheap political stunt in the bigger picture of taking on reactive French left. His condemnation from the European commission for actions that have question marks over the legality of deportation actions seems to matter little. While no one questions practical problems exist, using the Roma to bolster internal political support does nothing for a larger European problem that has a decade of work by those seeking solutions.

" But what have the Roma done to remove the stereotype and change their culture that is all too often rooted in crime?"

The short answer is,nothing.

"Deport Sarkozy and his clan to Hungary"

What an inane remark!

It is like:
Deport Gypsy clans back to Asia.

John Kennedy makes a good point in as much as what representative structure within the Roma exists to engage in dialogue with governmental organisations. Until people seek empowerment in a meaningful way then their needs will go unheard and action on these needs won't occur. I don't have that information but without leadership based on representation of people's aspirations, others will dictate. With the 'liberal label' I don't think that's true either. There is and has been a problem for decades. Without some thought and desire to change then stagnation will set it. The incident in Bratislava could have happened anywhere in a 'modern world'. I just hope that those involved in solution finding make some progress in what I recognise is a generational divide of Europe's legacy of growing up.

"Jiri, your point about the French govt having no problems with its African immigrants is rubbish."

Off course it is!I meant it to be that way.

My point is that "liberals" are defending Gypsies but forgot about the real problem of muslim immigration.

Jiri, your point about the French govt having no problems with its African immigrants is rubbish. Sarkozy knows that deporting the Roma in a television visable event that he will win political support from Mr Jean-Marie Le Pen founder and president of the national front. I accept that violent destructive behaviour has no defence. Mr Sarkozy will be the darling of the national front this week and further immigrant division will flourish under his name.

" Violence was seen as a symptom of french born children of African and Muslim immigrants being trapped in poverty, poor housing and discrimintaion."

The use of violence is never thrusted on anyone for any reason.The violence is a chosen trait.
You can't select a particular way of life and blame it on circumstances only.People have a free will.They need to be held responsible for their actions and not to blame it on civilization at large.
To think otherwise is cop-out.

Paris October 27th 2005 riots erupted for seven nights and spread to 20 suburbs. Two teenagers hid in a sub power plant from police and unfortunatley this lead to thier deaths. Violence was seen as a symptom of french born children of African and Muslim immigrants being trapped in poverty, poor housing and discrimintaion. The government were also deeply concerned that suburbs were becomming crime dominated. The muslim population is estimated at 5,000,000. In context with the Roma numbers, proportion of problem has been inflated with a degree of insensitivity.

"Jiri, the level of support for the Roma with large street demonstrations in Paris hides a deeper immigrant friction that has little to do with the Roma. Riots in Paris are linked to social poverty of multi-immigration and new labour laws are very unpopular."

Unless I am missing something, the French government has no problem with colored people like Algiereans and others from their colonial past.They seem to have a problem with Gypsies/Tsyganies/Romas.
Can you guess why?

Jiri, the level of support for the Roma with large street demonstrations in Paris hides a deeper immigrant friction that has little to do with the Roma. Riots in Paris are linked to social poverty of multi-immigration and new labour laws are very unpopular. Many of the deported say they will just go back to France. I see no easy soloutions; its a problem that has a common answer 'not in my back yard'. The Roma numbers as Karel notes are the size of a country spread across Europe. A start has been made; debate for change with binding rules is all I can see making any change.

" A while back the Slovaks tried taking Gypsy children and putting them in boarding schools. In theory this would "break" the cycle of giving value to not working and stealing passed on from one generation to the next."

This thing did not work in Canada or in Russian/CCCP Siberia.The changes must come from within of Gypsy community.

I also have to confront my 'liberal' views by remembering a good Czech friend with 27 years experience of native living explaining to me until I have lived in a panalaky with the Roma I don't know what I am talking about. I can be optomistic , but my friends practicle experience was given in understanding my liberalism.

Jiri, I agree with your timelines and assimilation efforts by the Roma. The Czech government hold the post of Decade of Roma inclusion and the degree of difficulty in finding regular dialogue that leads to agreement is immense. Producing a framework of interaction that looks at solutions to problems that are apparent and visible to those involved will not be easy. Trust built on measurable results from debate tends to foster good relations; this would be a good building block to start with. The task in hand is of gigantic proportions and communication seems the key area. At least there is effort and acknowledgement that progress can be made if effort and agreement are binding. It is a 'century' problem and I wish those involved pragmatism and serenity.

Karel,
I don't think that a "Roma" state would work. Mind you... some Gypsy clans are in a semi-warlike state amongst each other. Not only do they not like the "whites", there is major infighting between Gypsy clans. The Gypsy problem is quite complex. Part of the problem is that within their own culture it is believed to be OK to steal from the whites. The bedrock of Western civilization... Judeo-Christian morals coming from among other areas the ten commandments, like "thou shalt not steal" have been used as the basis for our laws and hence are also a part of Western societies' "unwritten" moral and ethical code of proper conduct. This has absolutely no meaning in Gypsy society. This is why education and hard work have little meaning in many Gypsy clans. Hence if the "whites" are stupid enough to let them live "on the dole" then they will live "on the dole" (welfare programs). The sad thing is that this type of mentality (some call it culture) are passed from one Gypsy generation to another. A while back the Slovaks tried taking Gypsy children and putting them in boarding schools. In theory this would "break" the cycle of giving value to not working and stealing passed on from one generation to the next. But... there was massive protest from ultra-liberals, so at present I'm not sure if that program is still being applied or not.

It sure looks to me as though the Roma could use their own state. The questions are, however:

. do they want their own state?
. could they found, and then run their own state?
. where could they have their own state?

According to one web source, there are between eight and twelve million Roma in Europe, more than enough to run a state.

Jiri,
I agree with you. I will not say ALL gypsies are not good etc. Of course that is not true, but for me personally... the few encounters that I have had with them have not been good encounters.

"ALL of my personal encounters with the Roma (Gypsies) have not been good."

Thanks Tomas.However,I would never say that gypsies have no potenrial to be winners.
Prior to my emigration to Canada in 1968 I had a love affair with gypsy woman(my senior by two years) who would stand out from any group of people no matter who they were.
Beautiful,hard working,great cook,great lover,tidy and clean and smart.
Those were times that I still remember with fondness until now.

Jiri,
You are right about that. ALL of my personal encounters with the Roma (Gypsies) have not been good. On all encounters someone of Gypsies ethnicity has either stolen or tried tried to steal something from me. Much of the woes that they suffer are self-inflicted. If they sent their children off to school and tried to better themselves via hard work rather than criminal activity, the majority of European societies would view them in a different light.

' The Roma have been a European case of neglegent non inclusion for several decades and the problems faced are pan European with no one country excluded in task in hand."

Jan your timeline is wrong.This problem is going on for several centuries-not decades.
You need to acknowledge,that Gypsie's attitude toward the life in general is a very large part of their problem in assimilation.

With President Obama informing Mr Sarkozy of the strategic advantange to the E.U. and the USA of Turkey as a full E.U. member this will no doubt test French/American 'viewpoints'. The other defensive options within the enlarged E.U. ; some already at pre-planning stage, dont have the geographical advantages Turkey has in this particular uncertain decade unfolding. The Roma have been a European case of neglegent non inclusion for several decades and the problems faced are pan European with no one country excluded in task in hand. Looking at European history WW1; WW2; maybe the time to turn the humanistic corner has arrived in giving the more discriminated, impoverished and neglected the same energy that it took to survive two world wars.