Klaus-Havel rivalry plays out on city streets

When university papers by this generation on 'The economic development of the modern Czech Republic' or 'The sociology of civic values in privatisation' appear; the marking criteria will prove difficult for the examination boards. However; it is with a degree of confidence that Czech education will not be found wanting; and the student effort will have the same effort as those who saught reformin 1989.

Jan Fleur: "Jiri./Louis. Once again I appeal to you both to reflect on the energy taken in fighting each other."

Jan, you don't understand. They enjoy it. I enjoy it. You enjoy it.

"By empowering this generation to seek answers is more noble than hacking over the last generations mistakes.The next beers are on me."

Jan, as long as I am not dead,I reserve to contribute to any debate I choose to.
It is not really generational divide that you are talking about and pressume that young generation's views are more important in Czech politics.
The country's history in all its aspects can't be excluded from the debate.For sure,younger generation will inherit the country but it can't make any decissions in the vacuum apart from the history and all of its citizens.
The older generations have a lot to say.

In other of your comments you are praising the caretaker government.
Yes,this government stabilized the political situation in the country to some degree as they were supposed to under the constitution.It surely helped that after the initial agreement of most political parties on members of government this apolitical government has no political allegiance to any party and can afford to be pragmatic.
You must understand though that in democracies the election will eventually come and the government will be forged that will for sure reflect the philosophy of winning party.
That is inherent in democracy and as in any country in the west this will cause political backstabbing and discord between parties and even people at large.

It is unfortunate that it will happen but it is a nature of the beast.There is no better political system,though,that I am aware of.Do you any better?
Please don't tell me that it is any fundemantelly different in Czech Republic than in the west.
I am living in the west for forty years(probably longer than you are old) and there is no shred of evidence that it is so.

I will take that beer if we ever meet-even if I am pain in the ass.

Jiri./Louis. Once again I appeal to you both to reflect on the energy taken in fighting each other. Its only a suggestion; but your respective knowledge on subject matter may benefit others who are looking at free press interaction. In that way you can both contribute. Tearing each other apart is not an aspiration of debate that a younger reader may want to see.
Somehere in all of this a new generation will have to decide what thier value system is going to be; and what models it aspires to. The progressive new approach seems to be to forgive the last 20 years of 'transition' ; but an understanding that change must take place. By empowering this generation to seek answers is more noble than hacking over the last generations mistakes.The next beers are on me.

The alignment of economic policy in the early 2000 and importation of then USA economics seemed a bold move by 'carrer economists' with little political experience. Also then USA foriegn policy seemed to be very bold in central Europe. Then, crash; and changes in world events showed the need to be flexible; while remaining commited to a free Europe. No one wanted the economic depression; but it did highlight the dangers of politics being left to'economic advisers'. The difference in political approach was stark; the institutions needed to change from the inside; the very principle that Havel had fought against, a faceless beaurocratic machine. As Mr Fischer has noted the nature of government institutions needs to be solid from the inside out; even Mr Klaus would subscribe to moral financial prudence.
The 'excess' that unregulated markets indulged in; and its bailout by governments showed that politics is far to important to be left to 'economic polititions'. The evidence is mountain high ;river deep to support that statement; the partnership between free market and political responsibility needs a reality check.

Jiri If I said 'a burr under the saddle' was a pain in the ass...would you buy me half a litre of pivo?

With Mr Widers wandering around lost with no where to 'lecture' the masses. How did this spectacle ever see the light of day? Once again judgement of national interest seems to have familiar faultlines.

"keep one thing in mind they are both good men ,but also without SOVERIGNITY you have nothing ."

I assume that you are referring to European Union?

keep one thing in mind they are both good men ,but also without SOVERIGNITY you have nothing .

'A person from the senate office'.......invited... extreme views; divisive; caused outcry.
This repeat performance again highlights the need for the democratic process as opposed to that of backdoor politics aimed at divsion. The root of the most devisive issues always return to the same origin. Archaic being the defining quality of 'divisive' gives the process even less creedence in modern reformist politics.

"You claimed that Habsburg dynasty was not corrupted.
Louis,their empire existed in times that would not allow any comment and/or opinion contrary to the dictatorship that existed.
Of course that it was corrupted.That was one of the reasons why those bright individuals you are mentioning ensured that the empire took to the ruin of itself."

Lest some people assume that I am saying that Habsburgs were corrupted in an individual,personal way I like to aver that I do not have any particular reason nor proof that it was so.
However,it is surely obvious for those who take time to look at it that the bureocracy of government of Habsburgs was thoroughly corrupted as any dictatorship is.
Habsburgs(I assume) had no reason to be involved in any personal corruption as they were holders of vast riches they accumulated over the centurieas when they ruled.We can question the legality of the way they obtained these but the corruption in today's meaning can't be assumed.I will stand corrected in this if somebody proves otherwise.

"quite soon His Holiness Pope Benedict XVI will declare "Saint" of the Holy Church our last Sovereign Emperor Karl I, obviously for an ultra nationalist like you this will be an insult, but who cares what you say or think,"

No Louis,it would not be an insult to me if it happen.

Such a thing is irrelevant and immaterial to most of people and certainly to me.

I just can't get it :what is so horrendous to you that new countries Hungary,Austria and Czechoslovakia had risen out of ruin of spent dynasty?
In fact you should be happy that the irrelevant empire is gone for ever and ever-never to return.

It is now time for democracy-not archaic form of dictatorship governments.And if some countries in Europe attempt to form another dictatorship through the means of European Union,they will be surely and sorely rebuffed.

And if you are looking for a perfection in any country in the world you would not find it anywhere-least of all in Vatican.

Jiri I don't give a penny for what you said about me, you are almost brainless and a poor little guy, but in the West they are lots of people that recognize in these days the work of our dynasty, which gave a lot to the European culture and civilization during 7 centuries, quite soon His Holiness Pope Benedict XVI will declare "Saint" of the Holy Church our last Sovereign Emperor Karl I, obviously for an ultra nationalist like you this will be an insult, but who cares what you say or think, nobody. Going back to the born of the Czechoslovak national state I must repeat was so artificial that didn't last seven decades, when the Habsburg's lasted 7 centuries. Yugoslavia is over as well, all what those neo Jacobins and Masons, church haters did, is over and forgotten. In Vienna lived harmoniously people whose ancestors were Czechs, Magyars, Ukrainians, Poles, Croats, etc. During the mass in memory of Kaiser Karl, were a Slovene priest and another one from Prague who praised the Emperor for his efforts in favour of peace in WW1. Lately were published some 8 books in English and 7 in French about Kaiser Karl and Kaiserin Zita and their son Archduke Otto, who with his 97 years old still gives conferences in all Europe and is well considered by all decent people. Nobody remembers Masaryk and Benes except a group of staunch Czechs who are suffering from Alzheimer disease like you; you can lie and lie but will never change what the dynasty did in favour of their peoples without any xenophobia, like the one is practice against the Roma people within the boundaries of your Czech state, and to say that the monarchy was corrupted is such a distortion of truth and denial of facts, that doesn't resist the slightest analysis of the Habsburg history.


THE PICNING THAT CHANGED THE WORLD (DAILY TELEGRAPH, LONDON)

Who would have thought that in the end the Iron Curtain would be brought down not with a bang, but with basketfuls of sandwiches and hot dogs?

How the East was rediscovered and yet that is what happened. On August 19 1989, at the instigation of the Austrian Euro MP Doctor Otto Franz Josef Karl von Habsburg (a name of great resonance in these parts) and the reformist Hungarian Minister of State Imre Pozsgay, it was agreed to hold a "Pan-European Picnic" just outside the Hungarian town of Sopron, right on the border with Austria.

The idea was to open the border for about three hours and allow participants to cross unchecked into Austria, taking a step further a process started two months earlier when the foreign ministers of Hungary and Austria, Gyula Horn and Alois Mock, had picked up some clippers and symbolically cut through the barbed wire.

The picnic organisers reckoned on a crowd of several thousand (it was over 10,000) who would come to enjoy a bite to eat and the removal, albeit temporarily, of the once impregnable Iron Curtain.

What they hadn't reckoned on was the presence of about 600 canny East Germans and even Czechs who, hearing what was planned, thought they would seize the moment to escape to the West.

The Hungarian border guards turned a blind eye and let the East Germans and others through. Although the border was subsequently resealed, a chain of events had been set in motion that led, less than three months later, to the fall of the Berlin Wall.

Today the site of those dramatic scenes is an international tourist attraction. The Pan-European Picnic Park, as it is now termed, covers a large area of wild woodland (given how close it was to the border it was largely uncultivated). A solitary watchtower - from which soldiers were at one time authorised to fire - is a reminder of how things once were.

In addition to a gate and some stretches of the old barbed-wire barrier, the site contains photographic reminders of what happened here (with good explanations in English). There are also memorials, including a pagoda presented by the Japanese-Hungarian Friendship Society, some cherry trees and plaques containing weighty words on the joys of freedom from politicians such as the then West German Chancellor, Helmut Kohl.

Interesting though all this is, it is not quite enough to justify a visit for any but the keenest of modern-history students.

The same cannot be said, however, for Sopron - a delightful town dating back to Roman times that contains a wealth of medieval, baroque and rococo architecture second only to that found in Budapest itself.

Just south of Sopron, the Lovérek district is a lovely spot for fresh air and bracing walks in pine-forested hills followed by spa indulgences. To the east, the reedy marshland on the banks of Lake Ferto, a sanctuary for white egrets, great crested grebes and wild geese and a UNESCO World Heritage site, is another popular place to relax - and sample the local wines.

Sopron has another unique selling point. The town has some 300 dentists and, while much of the trade comes from nearby (much more expensive) Austria, many of the practices now cater for English-speaking clients. There are worse places you could check in to get yourself a new crown.

" As Winston Churchill recognized in his memoirs, the fall of the House of Habsburg was a direct consequence of the plot organized by the European Masonry, Masaryk, Benes, Clemenceau and Lloyd George were all masons and hate the Habsburg dynasty just because was the most Catholic European dynasty."

So what,if they were masons?

You claimed that Habsburg dynasty was not corrupted.
Louis,their empire existed in times that would not allow any comment and/or opinion contrary to the dictatorship that existed.
Of course that it was corrupted.That was one of the reasons why those bright individuals you are mentioning ensured that the empire took to the ruin of itself.
Like a Phoenix out of its ashes emerged new countries like Hungary,Austria and Czechoslovakia.
Were there imperfections in these new states?Yes,there were as there are in any new(and old alike)state.
When France emerged from its revolution one third of its population perished during and after the revolution.It would be false to say that all of the dead were just aristocrats and monarchs although they were main targets of quilotina.(remember Marie Antoinette?)There were not enough of them to account for all the dead.

Your attempt to bring the "worst" of Czechoslovakia and the "best" of Habsburgs in this blog is inane at the best.
No thinking person will accept it.

Forced sterilization a method implemented by the Nazis in the 1939's, and the totalitarian regime in China, this is outrageous, something like this never happened in the past and there is no other European democracy that follows this immoral practice, which is an open violation of human rights and a crime against humanity, which for sure will originate a legal action at The Hague.

"The government expressed its regret to Roma women who were sterilized without their consent but admitted the practice may still be taking place. Human Rights and Minorities Minister Michael Kocáb told The Prague Post the decision to address the issue had the complete backing of the Cabinet, but it was just a small step on the way to ensuring full human rights for all citizens" (Prague Post).

Corruption under V. Klaus had increased immensely, another symptom of a decay of all values, knowing very well your history, under your hated Habsburg rule, your country advanced a lot in all fields, and never the Imperial and Royal Government was blamed as "corrupted". As Winston Churchill recognized in his memoirs, the fall of the House of Habsburg was a direct consequence of the plot organized by the European Masonry, Masaryk, Benes, Clemenceau and Lloyd George were all masons and hate the Habsburg dynasty just because was the most Catholic European dynasty. Churchill added that the e
European balance of power vanished in 1919 and the emerging democracies were not real democracies at all, like the dictatorship in Belgrade of the Karageorgevic's and even in Czechoslovakia, the minorities were persecuted from 1919. Even Hitler was a result of these horrendous treaties.

"The situation will not change tomorrow or the day after, but this is a step, a small step, in helping all minorities in the Czech Republic," he said. "This government saw something wrong and tried to change it. It may be a caretaker government, but we knew we could act on this issue." (Prague Post)

""Jiry by the way, did you read in the news that your dear country under the rule of V.Klaus is considered one of the most corrupted countries in Europe?""

Louis,you have got it all wrong.
Mr.Klaus does not rule Czech Republic.He represents it.
He might rule EU but he just represents Czech Republic.
The days of rulers are long gone.And good ridance of them too.

"Jiry by the way, did you read in the news that your dear country under the rule of V.Klaus is considered one of the most corrupted countries in Europe?"

Louis, one should identify with what is the best in one's people, not the worst. I am most happy to identify as a person of Czech background, most happy. And I am happy they have their own state. And I am also happy Austrians have their own state. And there is nothing artificial about a state that has been in existence since 1918, nothing. After all, Austria has been in existence for the same period. Could you call Austria an artificial state because it is not ruling over other peoples? Good luck to the Austrians I say! Sometimes the kids just want to leave home you know.

" The policies of industrialized the nation were started in the mid XIX Century under the benevolent rule of Kaiser und König Franz Joseph I."

Louis,you must know that industrial age at large started at about the time you mentioned all over in Europe and in North America.
Why would it be any special that it also started in the empire of Habsburgs?
What it has to do with "artificiality of Czechoslovakia.
The Habsburg empire was under pressure for many years prior to establishment of new home of Czechs,Moravians and Slovaks.Masaryk merely speeded up this disintegration and therefore will for ever be in our hearts.
We only were a part of AustroHungarian empire through the duress and were very happy that the empire colapsed on itself.It was its time for it to die.

You like your irrelevant Habsburgs,we like our Masaryk.

Jiry by the way, did you read in the news that your dear country under the rule of V.Klaus is considered one of the most corrupted countries in Europe?

Jiri if the great achievement of Masaryk was to "get rid of the Habsburg dynasty" then we must conclude that Czechoslovakia a complete artificial state, it its very origin had an original sin, or there were other achievements that you didn't mention? The policies of industrialized the nation were started in the mid XIX Century under the benevolent rule of Kaiser und König Franz Joseph I. Thanks to those decisions especially Bohemia was the heart of an industrial and financial revolution inside the Empire. What was the legacy of Masaryk and Benes? As far as I know nothing at all. After the collapse of the Communist regime, which was quite generous with Vaclav Klaus and on the contrary had persecuted a patriot like Havel, the Czechoslovak national state vanished, and Slovakia a country which was part of the Hungarian realm for centuries gained independence, in the same way that other artificial state invented by the allies in the so-called "Peace Conference" in 1919, the Kingdom of the Serbs, Croats and Montenegrins, after 1929 Yugoslavia had the same fate, disintegration and civil war, thanks God wasn't the case of the countries, which were the inheritance of the House of Habsburg since 1524. We celebrated in Vienna a week ago the 97 anniversary of a man who did a lot for the establishment of what is now the European Union, His Imperial and Royal Highness Archduke Otto of Austria, who struggled for decades, with just one aim, a united Europe.

"Klaus and Havel are patriots with good intensions with the same life objective and that is to create a most appealing legacy to surpass one of T.J. Masaryk, Good luck. "

How true,

I often wondered why people seem to pick on Klaus(the people that don't really count).
Klaus is unconvential,politically incorrect and that is a "burr under the saddle" for some conventionally thinking people.

I am not sure,though,that both of them are consciously trying to surpass Masaryk.
Masaryk will always have a special place in Czech hearts for it was under his leadership we got rid of Habsburg dynasty.

Hope; that next year has good elections. Would be good if compromise and respect were forefront. To put past indulgencies aside and allow government to form within respected bounderies. No point in just casting doubt and gloom on the future; try and contribute in the positive.

At least students are getting a free dissatation 'Petty Political Problems' ;no comfort when essay's are due and the ploveka stocks are low. 'Structuralism and Mechanics' now that grass roots people are asking for democratic change within political parties (Prague Monitor);when 77% ask for new leadership. Celebrity come dancing politics, political television debates , with a rock band; maybe. Its no wonder apathy leads to cynical critisism; where can anyone contribute. Keeping health seems paramount; maybe watch a good comedy; listen to good music; call a friend; write a short story;a play; a poem. Winter time; minus zero temps; polevka; coffee, more clothes; Gods spring in Prague as a guide. No longer a tourist; just passing through a landscape; may the faith be with you.

Klaus and Havel are patriots with good intensions with the same life objective and that is to create a most appealing legacy to surpass one of T.J. Masaryk, Good luck.
Klass is more of a pragmatic politician known as a maverick, Havel is more of a ideologue dreamer with a worldwide recognition.

I apologise for my opinion; it realy is none of my buisness. I hope things go well and and I will get on with my responsibilities. It's imature of me to say such things; the comments could be inflamitory and I should know better. In future I'll be more respectful; politics does not need a viewpoint that has little depth.

Sorry I mean Vaclav Havel is the hero, not at all Mr. Klaus, both are Vaclav but one who I met many years ago, is a brilliant intellectual and a great person.

Vaclav Klaus is the hero of the resistance against the Soviet occupation and its puppet regime in Prague, on the contrary Klaus was openly a collaborator, and had all the freedoms that most Czechs, Slovaks and Moravians never enjoyed at the time. There are lots of connections between the Fascist far right and the fart left, and the great disease of many of the "new democracies" nationalism. Klaus is a man who doesn't deserve any respect, a demagogue, with an entourage of quite corrupted people and there is not a single leader in the West that has any sympathy towards him. There is one who feels comfortable with him Vladimir Putin the criminal PM of Russia.

Jiri without you life would be dull; thanks.

"And Klaus seems to have supporters that go far beyond the common man into people able to mobilize a million crowns for posters within days of his signing the Lisbon Treaty Nov. 3. "

And so what?
He is present President and people do stand behind him.
He is perceived as a person who will look out for Czech Republic's interests.

If "liberals" don't like it -too bad!!!

The ODP having delayed elections; will now try and devide opionion in the same reckless way. The import of negative style campaining;
'What can we do to split the peoples viewpoint?'
We will stand behind you sums it up; any other party worth credit would have;
'We will stand with you'.