Klaus' Lisbon request exposes divisions

Re Louis V Wetzler. I hope your nephew is well cared for....

Hybaj Ho!!! na dobre politika!!! pass me the normix...

Louis, I am referring to Peter Andrews, if you remember him. He and Jiri were sparring regularly until last week I think. He did say something a few weeks ago in regard to the Pope which was taken off the blog, and he was warned not to do anything like that again by the editor.

So good night is 12,32 am, and tomorrow I have to go with my nephew Francis to his neurologist, he suffers from MS (Multiple Sclerosis), he is my Godson as well and is like my own son, this is much more important than any discussion, wishing you all the best, Louis Fr. v. Wetzler

Karel I don't find here anyone with those initials saying anything to Ian, or I am blind?

Does anyone know why a certain somebody with the intitials PA seems to have disappeared?

I do hope he hasn't written something beyond the pale again and been disqualified from writing in these pages. That sort of thing makes my stomach squirm, even though he was very nasty to Ian.

"Jiri you make my day or evening is 10, 30 PM in Buenos Aires, if your refer that the nobility only marriages within its ranks you are utterly wrong that may happened a century ago, but in these days for Christ sake the Prince of Asturias (with Habsburg blood) is married to the granddaughter of a taxi driver,"

Actually,Louis it does not matter as I already said.As far as I am concerned the title "noble" should only apply to the state of mind not to any bloodline.
I am sure that you yourself agree that to call any family "noble" is silly semantic nonsense,although some people would disagre about that.
The modern science is quite straithforward about these matters.However, it is a fact of history that so called "noble" families did indeed intermaried often in their mistaken belief that they would "dilute" their bloodline.
Of course we can charge to the ignorance of the olden times,right?
Well,I am glad that we cleared that one away and that we agree on something.

Jiri you make my day or evening is 10, 30 PM in Buenos Aires, if your refer that the nobility only marriages within its ranks you are utterly wrong that may happened a century ago, but in these days for Christ sake the Prince of Asturias (with Habsburg blood) is married to the granddaughter of a taxi driver, Prince Maximilian von Liechtenstein was married to an Afro Panamanian and nobody complained about this wedding, even Hans Adam. And I can give you thousands of examples. My own family is a melange of different social and even religious backgrounds; my own grandfather was "non eligible" as "Arian" according with the so-called laws of Nürenberg, in spite that many Nazis had "inferior blood" as well. I don't give a penny regarding the purity of our blood, just think that we have 16 great great grandparents and each of them other 16, so unless you are member of a well known dynasty, is almost impossible to know, from where each of your ancestors come. So Jiri stop with your nonsense. In 1900 seven Archdukes of Austria were married against the rules of the House of Habsburg, even the widow of Archduke Rudolf, Stefanie of Saxe Coburg married a member of the nobility, but not one who was in the "list". His daughter Archduchess Elisabeth after divorced her husband Prince Windisch Grätz married a socialist journalist, and was known as the Red Archduchess. Sophia Chotek in spite of being member of one of the oldest Czech families was not considered according with status. Since the fall of the monarchy most members of the royalty married all sorts of people. Jiri don't be so stubborn and narrow minded please, just for a day, and learn more, your knowledge of history and genealogy is equal to zero.

"And Louis, though I have no noble blood, my mother came from a very well to do family of the bourgeois kind in north eastern Bohemia. They were industrialists. All of that was lost in 1948"

Hey Karel,do not despair.There is not such a thing as a "noble" blood.In fact those who call themselves "nobles" have-biologically speaking-some very bad blood among themselves due to intermarriages and interbreeding.It is a well known fact.You yourself noticed the Habsburg's lip.

I don't think that there is in fact any "pure" blood in those families,less any "noble" factor save in their minds.

Having said that it is a harmless self delusion so there is no need to worry about that one way or other.

"This is a gift for Jiri and Karel, I hope that they will have some sense of humour isn't the Deutschland über alles, which was a Republican anthem in 1848, and in 1933 from the Nazis, but originally the music from Franz Josef Haydn had another goal: "

Thank you Louis,

You made my day with this.
I did not have such a good laugh in a very long time.
You Enspiegel you.Now I know what you really want-to amuse people.

Thanks again.

Karel I agree with you almost an 80%, you are sincere and honest and I believe you when you say that you don't hate Germans, in fact I am an Argentine citizen with an Austrian passport as well. There is an Austrian nationalism that had struggled a lot against the Nazis, which was the case of Dollfuss as you know close friend to Archduke Otto and enemy of the Nazis, the reason why he was murdered. I am black and yellow Austrian, which means I don't feel that we are "Germans". As my grandfather reacted when he was deprived of his citizenship, we are Austrians not Germans who cares what Hitler does with our citizenship, the same reaction of some friends like Prince Ernst von Starhemberg, Count Max von Thurn Valsassina, and the whole Imperial family exiled in Belgium at the time and after the invasion of 1940 in Canada and the USA. By the way I do have lots of Czech blood, so I don't hate Czechs on the contrary I love Prague, the countryside, Smetana's music and all Bohemia and Moravia. What I am upset is with those who don't recognize what the Habsburg meant for the Czech culture, the uniqueness of Prague is due to the immense impulse of Kaiser Franz Josef to the city, which he loved. Central Europe is almost one culture, we have the same meals, we love music, and we share Mozart and Strauss and many other things. What I hate is nationalism, not only Czech but German as well or any other, it is a disease, which destroyed Europe not only the Empire. What is Europe now, a little better thanks to the EU, but Europe alone cannot do anything, even with the global crisis, the USA, Russia, China, India and even Brazil are the big players. You know well Karel, that without a united Europe, a country like the Czech Republic will collapse, and the same for Hungary and Austria. Best wishes Louis

Purely as a matter of interest, Adolf Hitler is very close to my family, in a manner of speaking.

As a teenager, my mother visited Berlin in 1936 with her father to attend the wedding of some Czech relative and a German. They went by train via Dresden, which my mother said was a beautiful city. It was the time of the Berlin Olympics. My mother and her father attended those olympics, and one day were seated nearby to Adolf Hitler. A couple of years ago I asked her how close she actually was to the great man. She said, "Oh, about from here to there." "From here to there" was about thirty feet, or ten metres. And Goering was sitting with Hitler. And my mother refused to stand for the German anthem when it was played, despite prodding from her father to do so. Fact.

Louis, you say, "it is a waste of time to argue with Jiri or Karel, they just hate everything that is not pure Czech and they support the ethnic cleansing organized by Benes ... "

This is not true, and I expect better from a man who has one PhD and is completing another.

For starters, Louis, I, like very many Czechs, have some German blood coursing through my veins. My mother has a christening certificate at her home to prove it. German blood from Saxony from the first half of the 1800's. Big deal! To me it's only of historical interest. You do not understand what it means to be Czech, living, in those days, before 1945, in an ocean of Germans. Germans to the north in Prussia, Germans in the east in Germany, and Germans in the south in Austria. Not to mention Germans everywhere in the cities, towns and villages of Bohemia and Moravia, whether they were in the majority in those places or not. For hundreds and hundreds of years, but particularly during and after the age of nationalism, Czechs always measured themselves against Germans; Germans were the yardstick. Czechs defined themselves as an entity against Germans. Location is everything, as they say in the real estate business, Louis.

I do not hate Germans Louis, but I have a deep mistrust of them. In fact, I like listening to German and I can speak it to a degree. I have a lingustic bent, a love of languages.

As for the Benes Decrees, I neither support nor condemn them. All of that happened before I was born here in Australia. Neither of my parents was involved in the Odsun. In fact my father used to say it was a mistake throwing the Germans out because of their talent for industry. The Czechs should have liquidated the few thousand who led the Sudetendeutsch movement and got on with things. Moreover he told me the way the Czechs treated these people after the war was appalling - they had to wear labels identifying them, just like the Jews during the war, and they were the last to receive food and work. And this from a man who had to go to Germany to work for the Reich in Plauen, and during the last part of the war fought as a partisan against SS units.

And Louis, though I have no noble blood, my mother came from a very well to do family of the bourgeois kind in north eastern Bohemia. They were industrialists. All of that was lost in 1948, the factory, the big two storey house, the wealth, the good life. "We'll show you!", the communists shouted at her in 1948 with a clenched fist. And show her they did. To reclaim that property, or part of it, would have meant her spending half the year on a regular basis in the CR which was not to her taste as she was already around 70.

Eduardo the history of your family is quite interesting, you may write to me to my email lafvwetzler@gmail.com. By the way, a friend of mine told me yesterday during a gala dinner that she is close related to you, kindest regards Luis

Louis
I already wrote about the origin of my family earlier today. If a country is invaded by another and the invadors stay their for centuries, you eventually will have to start working for them. Thats what my family did, working for the Hapsburg administration and later for the Prussian government. They did that not without refusing it first, and as I said had all their properties taken by two Emperors: Maria Theresia (Grand mother of my great grand mother) and also by Frederic the Great. We got our properties back paying high fines and after that my ancestors thought it was wiser to change religion and work for the Emperors. We had properties in Austria (Hradec nad Moravici) and Prussia (Chuchelna, Borucin, Krzyzanowice, etc etc). When my great grand father left the German Embassy in London, he was very disapointed with the German Government. He published My London Mission which was translated for many languages and used as the base for the German War guilty. His son Wilhelm was taking care of our states when German soldiers told him to leave his castle in Chuchelna. We had already given 5/6 of our properties to the land reform and were taking care of our own business when The Nazis started doing their shit. I spoke with historians and they also found it difficult to say whether we are Germans, Polish, Czech or even Austrians. We had a residence in Viena where many of my ancestors worked. If you want I can right to your email as I dont want other readers to think that I am trying to show off here!!!

When Prince Karl Lichnowsky took over as ambassador to London in the Fall of 1912, he was given a difficult task, but was not expected to accomplish it. It was his responsibility to repair damaged relations between Great Britain and Germany. He excelled at this job. Between the time of his appointment on 1912 and his departure in 1914 the Prince negotiated a colonial treaty, secured the peace of Europe in the1912 Conference of Ambassadors, and brought about better feelings between Great Britain and Germany.

His success made his superiors in Berlin distrustful of him and his close relationship with the British foreign office. In July 1914, Lichnowsky pleaded with Chancellor von Bethmann-Hollweg and Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs Gottlieb von Jagow, to use discretion in their support of Austria. In his view, Britain would definitely support Russia and France in a war defending Serbia against Austrian aggression. The Chancellor and the Secretary did not trust Prince Lichnowsky's judgment because they believed him to be easily duped by the British. After the war started, Lichnowsky returned to Germany and spent the rest of his life trying to justify his actions.

This is a gift for Jiri and Karel, I hope that they will have some sense of humour isn't the Deutschland über alles, which was a Republican anthem in 1848, and in 1933 from the Nazis, but originally the music from Franz Josef Haydn had another goal:

1. Zachovej nám Hospodine
Císaře a naši zem
Dej, ať z víry moc mu plyne
Ať je moudrým vladařem
Hajme věrně trůnu Jeho
Proti nepřátelům všem
Osud trůnu Habsburského
Rakouska je osudem.

2. Plňme věrně povinnosti
Braňme právo počestně
A když třeba, s ochotností
V boj se dejme statečně
Na paměti věčné mějme
Slávu vojska vítěznou
Jmění, krev i život dejme
Za Císaře, za vlast svou!

3. Čeho nabyl občan pilný
Vojín zbraní zastávej
Uměním i vědou silný
Duch se vzmáhej, jasně skvěj
Bože račiž přízeň dáti
Naší vlasti milené
Slunce Tvé ať věčně svítí
Na Rakousko blažené.

4. Stůjme k sobě v každou chvíli
Svornost jenom moci dá
Spojené kde vládnou síly
Vše se snadno překoná
Když se ruka k ruce vine
Tak se dílo podaří
Říš Rakouská nezahyne
Sláva vlasti, Císaři!

5. Císaři po boku vládne
Rodem, duchem spřízněná
V kráse, která neuvadne
Císařovna vznešená
Bože račiž přízeň svoji
Habsburskému domu dát
Františkovi Josefovi
Alžbětě rač požehnat!

Eduard, Prince Wilhelm von Lobkowitz, like Prince Karl von Schwarzenberg and Count Kinsky like others were the fortunate to have some properties back, my friend Josef Graf Deym was another, but in most cases were a minority. Princess Mathilde Kinsky was a very anti Nazi supporter but her late husband was threatened by the Gestapo if he signed the letter that some 30 families of the Czech nobility signed in 1936, his cousins did it, because their properties were not in territory claimed by the German Reich to the then Czechoslovakia, but in spite of this fact the Nazis sent to prison not only those who signed the letter but others who by fear to the totalitarian state imposed by Hitler didn't sign. It is understandable, in regimes like the Nazi or the Soviets people acted by fear and horror. Prince Kinsky's brother in law, was one of the plotters against Hitler and he had cousins already in prison in Germany and Austria or sent to Concentration Camps, like thousands of Austrian nobles after the Anschluss on March 13, 1938, including the two sons of Archduke Franz Ferdinand and Countess Sophia Chotek, who was 100% Czech. But as far as I know your family were Germans not Austrians or I am mistaken? Prince Lichnowsky was the German ambassador to London on June 28, 1914.

Soon History will record the ratification of the Lisbon Treaty by the Czech Republic. Compared to many events in European history; it seems one of the better events. Is that to simple?

Louis
I met Prince William Lobkowicz in his museum in Prague and we talked about property restitutions . I dont want to put words in his mouth, but before one of the families that fell in to the Bennes Decrees wins something, we stand no chance. His case was different as he had his properties given back to him in 1945 and lost it again in 1948. They were, as you know, activily supporting the Czech Government in Exile during ww2.

Thanks Louis
Its a difficult situation here for me in the middle of You, Karel and Jiri, I cannot make any judgments but only put more fire in this discussion to my on behalf. Please keep on arguing and giving me more informations....

Eduardo I know well your family one Prince Lichnowsky was ambassador to London in 1914. By the way, it is a waste of time to argue with Jiri or Karel, they just hate everything that is not pure Czech and they support the ethnic cleansing organized by Benes with the OK of Stalin and MacMillan in 1945 and with the total disapproval of the US Department of State after FDR's death. I know lots of members of the Czech nobility who were even sent to camps by the Nazis like count Nostitz, Chotek, Czernin, Colloredo Mansfeld, Deym and Princes Lobkowitz which were confiscated by Benes and the Communist in spite of their anti Nazi credentials. The were worst than Nazis for Benes, many of them were friends and have good ties with Empress Zita and Archduke Otto, a capital sin for Benes, even when many Habsburgs perished in CC or all of them went to exile. By the way, Princess Dietrichstein fought for her castle in Nikolsburg for decades, finally they reached an agreement, she has a perpetual right to live whenever she wants in Mikulovo, so her family and in return she granted a loan of her paintings for a similar period, but she paid lots of money to her lawyers in the Czech Republic, the same case was of Prince Franz Kinsky who passed away on April 2, he left Prague in December 1939, was three years old, and her mother knew that the Gestapo was about to arrest her, so they travelled through Hungary and reached Italy where the took a steam and arrived in BA on January 6th, 1939. Six years later for Benes the small prince was a "traitor and collaborator". The spent a fortune in lawyers but the judiciary system in the Czech Republic is quite influenced by the government, is no exactly independent like in most European democracies, so they have to wait now for the European courts. My own family spent lots of money, and even demonstrating that we were anti Nazis, we were not an exception, the same properties, which were enjoyed by the criminal SS at the end were confiscated once more by Benes and the Communists. I have two wonderful lawyers in Prague, who are not pro Klaus and very independent, if you want their names I will give you, but they will give you the same advice that many had received; wait until Klaus is out, if not Strasburg is still an option.

http://kitenews.com.br/buzios/lichnowsky.htm
here you will find photos of the Castles and more info.
Thanks for the help, I really apreciate.
Sorry for my English, its my second language and I am not taking the time to check my spelling...

"In 1491, court judge Johann von Woschütz acquired by marriage with Sophie von Drahotusch, the estate and village of Lichten or Lichnow, which still exists, near the town of Jägerndorf. From that estate he called himself Lichnowsky (the man from Lichnow). This is what we see from the land register of Jägerndorf (I, 55) and also from a topographical and biographical dictionary"
Since 1491 our family has been living in Lichnov (CZ), Chuchelna (CZ) and Hradec nad Moravici (CZ). We had castles in all these cities plus Bolatice and Krzyzanowice. So I think we are from Silesia and thats Poland and Czech Republic. I know that we were first Bohemian Nobles, and later due to invasions Prussian and Austrian Nobles. Just like the rest of the Czech nobility, first we refused to be Austrians and later Prussians. For this reason we lost all our properties and had them given back to us after turning Austrians and Prussians. My ancestors spoke Czech and were proud of it. Religious and political pressures made us at the end become Prussians and Catholics. But thats the story of one generation, lets not forget all the others....
After WWI my grand father was expelled from the German Parliament and considered a traitor. His wife, novelis Mechtilde Lichnowsky had her books burned by the Nazis and was kept captive in her house and had to report contantlly to the Gestapo. She was living with her son in Hradec nad Moravici during ww2 as their main residence was taken by the Nazis during the war. They left the Hradec in 1945 by tractor and I was told, with the Russian army just 7 miles distant...
So you are right, originally the family came from Poland, but setled in CZ. Our name is Lichnowsky and according to a member of my family that was a historian Lichnovsky means in Czech : The man from Lichnov.
We no longer use the Von in our names as according to my great grand father it would mean the same as the termination SKY which he says or said is Czech...

Eduard,

Try again.The foreign ministry will not give you satisfying answer.It is not in their interest.The courts are the only way.
I know that it may be expensive,though.
By the way which castles were in your family's possession?
Just curious.

"The objective of my research is to understand how a family with 15 generations, with 14 of them being borned and raised in Silesia, sudenly, by the decision of one president, has to leave their beloved land and start somewhere else from zero."

Eduard,

I don't understand that too,since your name sounds more Polish than German.However,I do not know the circumstances of your family's expulsion if that is what happened.
I do not know when your family left former Czechoslovakia and why(or if) you were included in exile during Nazi occupation,after the WWII or after 1948.

The only thing you can do is research all the reasons for expulsion,evaluate them and apply them to claim in Czech Court if you believe that the expulsion was unfair.
If you are going to wait for abolishment of Benes Decrees(and try to apply in EU courts) you will be a very old man if ever to get any satisfaction.
I mentioned previously that indeed some claims were settled favorably for claimants in Czech Courts.(never mind the present scandal in Plzen)

yes Jiri
we were told by the lawyers and the Foreign ministry that we would have no chance because of the Benes Decree. We are waiting for the outcome of the Lisbon Treaty and even though with small hopes, we will eventually try to do something. It involves more than 5 thousand hectares of forest and three castles that we are not thinking of getting back but we would like to come to an agreement and also have our citizenship back. You can imagine how much lawyers ask for us just to research the case, thats why I am here disturbing you guys...

"Jiri, my father said, and he lived among a lot of Germans, that they were ok until 1933/4 when they were nehacovany by the Nazis and Konrad Henlein. From then on it was all downhill and any rapprochment with them at a future date became impossible."

Well,Karel,my family had a different experience and Czechs were treated -often-as a second class citizens in their own country by Germans and Austrians alike.(those times are gone forever)
It did improve during establishment of the First Republic until the Henlein times as you mentioned.

Jiri, my father said, and he lived among a lot of Germans, that they were ok until 1933/4 when they were nehacovany by the Nazis and Konrad Henlein. From then on it was all downhill and any rapprochment with them at a future date became impossible.

"Jiri, I heard those terms from my parents and other Czechs here, sometimes in seriousness, sometimes in jest. Naturally they heard them from Germans themselves."

Karel,I am not criticising you for publishing this phrase.I understand why you did.To balance the discussion.
It does impart the reality of conflict between Sudeten Germans and Czechs even before 1938.

"The thing is that now your country is not living in a comunist regime and there are private companies using the propertie that was supposed to be my Father,s . Why not at least open an oportunity for us to present our case?"

Well,did you try Eduard?

Hi Jiri
Yes I am familiar with those two situations. What I am doing here is researching. As I said I am no Historian but know what happened to my family. The objective of my research is to understand how a family with 15 generations, with 14 of them being borned and raised in Silesia, sudenly, by the decision of one president, has to leave their beloved land and start somewhere else from zero. You probably know the consequences and how tragic this can be. Of course I know what led Benes to do what he did and how the Czechs suffered. The thing is that now your country is not living in a comunist regime and there are private companies using the propertie that was supposed to be my Father,s . Why not at least open an oportunity for us to present our case? While the Benes Decret is being enforced there is not much that we can do, so I think that a revision on Czech laws would be more fair, even though not in the interest of some groups. In case of a change in European Constitution, I would try a setlement with your government, without thinking that I am doing anything unfair...

Jiri, I heard those terms from my parents and other Czechs here, sometimes in seriousness, sometimes in jest. Naturally they heard them from Germans themselves.

My parents were among those who left Czecholslovakia within weeks of the communist takeover in February, 1948. As the story goes the primary intention was to re-group in Germany with a view to going back to Czechoslovakia to fight the communists and kick them out, but that never eventuated. So people like my parents had the choice to go to the USA, Canada or Australia, and my parents decided on Australia.

"Or, Louis, a Tschechische/Slawische schwein. Right!?"

Right Karel,My family lived in Sudety since downfall of Austro-Hungarian Empire and we heard that term countless times.

"There are cases where the Benes Decret is totally unfair, and of course not only with noble families. Your government might have to come to an agreement with those families one day, and this is the subject that is being discussed here."

Hi Eduardo,

There were actually two waves of exiling people from Czechoslovakia after the WWII.First one that exiled Sudeten Germans almost immediatelly afterafter the war.This first wave was direct results of Benes Decrees which were supported by Victors in the war.The second wave that came after the communist putch in February1948 involved hundred of thousands of people that were perceived as anti-communists.
In this case,the Benes Decrees were misused and it is in those cases that people are able to go to Czech Courts and often win their cases.
Of course,the "Burden of proof"regarding their properties are left for them and that is what I was refering to in proving the innocence(which Louis is so steamed about).
Yes,I understand that many Sudeten Germans in the first wave were also innocent but as I was already explaining there was no time nor desire to try every single one of expelees.

As far as Louis "historical" rambling in this blog,you need to go to archives to understand how extremelly biased in interpretation of the facts of history he is.
Together with his maudling ways of immodest "strutting of stuff", his living in(in his mind) nineteen century and also improper promotion of Catholicism brings the replies to his "statements" that he deserves.

Louis, "right over the top" as you usually are. You are possessed.

Do you suffer from the Hapsburg lip?

Hello Jiri
Thanks for giving your thoughts on the matter. By the way, Graf for me is a name, thats how I use it here in Brazil. Lichnowsky is quite unpronounsable for the Brazillians...
I also signed up as Eduardo Lichnowsky here in this blog, but I made a mistake and my name now appears with the Graf. Its funny how this gets people excited, for me a title doenst mean much and it doenst make me better than anybody else. Maybe attitudes can show the difference between people. Take the Example of Mr Karl Max Lichnowsky, a native Check and slav, who during the first WW was working for the German goverment in London. He was the only German representant who officially acused German for the war in his despaches and made it a lot easier for the allies to be able to prove the German Guilty for the war and consequently for the Czech people to regain their lost land. I visited his lost properties in Hradec nad Moravici this year and was very well treated there and also in Poland where people were allways thanking me for every thing my family did there. There are cases where the Benes Decret is totally unfair, and of course not only with noble families. Your government might have to come to an agreement with those families one day, and this is the subject that is being discussed here.

Gentlemen I don't have to prove to you or anybody else in your country the innocence of my family, because we suffered the Nazi persecution, including deportation and concentration camps also, like the Communist as well. You are showing a total contempt for millions who lived in your country for centuries, and had contributed enormously to the development of Bohemia and Moravia, even before the Habsburg Dynasty acceded to the throne in 1526 for the third time and till 1918. Your ignorance of history is total, one is telling us how beautiful are the fields near Melbourne and the other one a complete autistic person, repeats and repeats all the time the same kind of lies and stupidities learned in School under the Communist regime, which by the way was no less criminal and totalitarian than the Nazis. But I am sure that most inhabitants of the lands of Saint Wenceslas are not in your side, are much more open minded and wants to be part of the new Europe, accepting the rule of law and international treaties, which is the way to be a civilized nation and even more if you are a country in "Mittel Europa", which was were most of the European culture had been forged for centuries. In Poland there was no massive persecution against those who lived in their own country, what happened that thanks to the illness of FDR, Stalin was able to take all Eastern Poland and annexed her as the did with Eastern Prussia to the then Soviet Union, so the Polish government in exile, which was completely opposed to this change of the boundaries of Poland, asked to get portions of the oldest Duchy and Kingdom of Saxony, afterwards Germany to compensate what the Russians had stolen from their territory. The only ones who persecuted and murdered Germans in Poland and the Baltic states were the Red Army not the Poles an extremely Catholic country and a land of martyrs, which I had a great dear of admiration. His Holiness Pope John Paul II a true polo from a little town near Cracow, was quite proud that his father was a petty officer of the Imperial and Royal Army and fought against the Russians in WW1 and in the Romanian front as well. Was him who started the canonization process of the Blessed Emperor Karl I a servant and man of God, as the Pope proclaimed in Rome in the presence of the whole Habsburg family, the Queen of Spain, the Grand Duke of Luxemburg, the Prince of Liechtenstein, the Queen of Belgium, her son in law Archduke Laurence and her daughter Astrid amongst thousands of others, just two years before our unforgettable Pope Wojtila passed away. Last but not least, the Nazis murdered millions in all Europe and the Soviet System 40 millions according with the Archives of the KGB (General Dmitri Volkoganov published them before he passed away), nobody was innocent in WW2, only the victims of both regimes and their allies in all Europe, like the mason and petit bourgeois of Benes in the former Kingdom of Bohemia.

Louis, "Karel I can hardly see the difference between Benes supporters and Communists, both were allies and Benes signed a treaty with Stalin in 1943, and I am very proud of being " ein Wohlgeboren Reichfreiherrn" not a Czech Jacobin or Bolshevik."

Or, Louis, a Tschechische/Slawische schwein. Right!?

Well, I am Louis, I am very proud of it!

You have your tribe, I have mine.

1933/4 - 1945 proved there can be no reasonable coexistence in the same house, under the same roof. So what happened happened.

"Jiri, Conte Sraldorini, Graf Serepecky ... You seem to attract your fair share of comments from the nobility. One thing though, at least they're not communists!"

Karel,suddenly there are many peas in the peapod of "nobility"that seems to believe they are offended part.
Now,Eda from Portugal is joining the choir.
The fact is that most of the people do understand the reason for Benes Decrees and consequent "Odsun" Nemcu.
Sure,new generation had forgotten(or never learned)the lesson of Nazi Germany-the original criminals that caused tens of millions casualties both in Europe and around the world.
But majority of people do really understand.
They also understand that Nazi Germany were abetted by their colonies in Czechoslovakia,Poland and other East European countries.There is an ample proof of it in the European history.Shortly after the WWII the government of Czechoslovakia,Poland,Hungary(with the blessing of Victors) and the others decided to depatriate the Germans en masse to prevent any possibility that such situation could happen again.Of course at those times of incredible bitterness against Germans there was no time and/or villingness for finding which people were guilty and who were just turning they eyes away from the crimes against the humanity perpetrated by Nazi Germany.
Consequently,very large majority were "odsunute"from the Czechoslovakia,Poland and the rest of countries that had large German population without any trials.It was impossible with such large numbers.
As Czechoslovakia is in the centre of Europe,many Germans that were escaping from the eastern Europe as the Red Army was advancing westward were trapped in Czechoslovakia bloating the numbers of expelled people .
I am sure that you know all of this but many people even in this blog do not,so I am mentioning about that.
Contrary to some "peacocks" I am not doing that to show off,rather to bring some balance to latest barrage of irrelevant nonsense from the descendants of expelled people.(some of them are probably innocent or neutral,the ones that were activelly against Nazism were able to stay in the country)
It is easy to write about something in the blog and something else to prove your family's innocence in the court of law.That is the reason,why not too many will dare to go to Czech courts to try to prove their innocence and consequently get return of their former property.
Despite of that,some did and got their satisfaction.There is no doubt about it.
My main contention is that the expulsion (even if it may not seem to be fair under today's conditions)was both needed and supported by the Victors-the people who were in power at that time.Within the context of post WWII situation,the expulsion was right thing to do and Benes Decrees that made it possible is an integral part of Czech and Slovak law system.Of course,the same applies to Poland.I am not sure if other East European countries also have post WWII expulsions laws in their judicial system or not.
When I have some time I am going to find out.

Karel I can hardly see the difference between Benes supporters and Communists, both were allies and Benes signed a treaty with Stalin in 1943, and I am very proud of being " ein Wohlgeboren Reichfreiherrn" not a Czech Jacobin or Bolshevik

Jiri, Conte Sraldorini, Graf Serepecky ... You seem to attract your fair share of comments from the nobility. One thing though, at least they're not communists!

Louis v. Wetzler
Thanks for your comments and explanations, I speak Portuguese and am very interested in History. If you have the time please contact me at edugraf2@hotmail.com so that we can exchange some more informations.
Best Regards
Eduardo.

Dobre Velvet Polevka; congratulations to the desire to be always free; Ava flows so beautiful xxx

By the way, for those who don't understand Czech Jiri was referring to the Austro Hungarian Empire in his own language, I may give some explanations about the different names depending in what you speak: The Austro-Hungarian Empire (Österreich-Ungarn, in German, Osztrák-Magyar Monarchia in Hungarian, Rakousko-Uhersko in Czech, Rakúsko-Uhorsko in Slovak, Avstro-Ogrska in Slovene, Austro-Ugarska in Croatian, Austro-Ugarska, in Bosnian) was also known as the Dual Monarchy. Created by the Ausgleich, or Compromise of 1867 between the Habsburg Emperor Franz Josef and the Magyar rulers of the kingdom of Hungary, the Empire united two kingdoms under one head of state. Each kingdom had its own legislative branch - the Reichsrat in Germany, and Diet in Hungary and its own ruling class: the German-speaking people in Austria, and the Magyars in Hungary. The German or Western half (Cisleithania) included the lands and kingdoms of Bohemia (Czech lands), Dalmatia, Galicia and Lodomeria, Upper Austria, Lower Austria, Bukovina, Carinthia, Carniola, Salzburg, Silesia, Styria, Moravia, Tyrol (including Vorarlberg), Austrian Littoral (Küstenland, including the Princely County of Gorizia and Gradisca, the City of Trieste and the Margravate of Istria). The Hungarian or Eastern half (Transleithania) included Hungary- including Transylvania and Vojvodina (today's northern Serbia), and Croatia - Slavonia. Bosnia-Herzegovina formed a separate part of the Empire, and was jointly administered by both halves.

My dear Eduardo Graf Lichnowsky, your case is the case of thousands of people, even Czechs like Prince Kinsky who when he was just 9 years old was declared a traitor by Benes and his clique, this was in 1945. He left Prague with his mother on December 17, 1939, escaping from the Nazis, all their belongings and properties were seized by the Nazis, Franz Ulrich was only three years old, and his father died in Vienna a year earlier. The Hohenberg brothers were sent to Dachau with thousands of political prisoners by the Gestapo in April 1938, they hardly survived and what Benes did in 1945, for a second time confiscate all their properties, even the clothes. Benes agreed in 1943 with Stalin what was going to be the fate of the so-called Sudetendeutsch (most were in the past loyal subjects of the Apostolic Crown), Magyars and even the Czech nobility and all people who were opposed to his plans. But here are vested interests which are opposed to the Treaty of Lisbon and all those who benefited from the confiscations ordered by Benes and after by the Communists as well.

I am not a Historian or lawyer and what I think comes from an uderstanding of someone looking at those events from the outside. The Czech government is hiding behind this out dated Decret and should come to terms with the persons involved with their lost properties and citizenship. There are a lot of people who are still waiting for a solution and would liked to be heard by a court. The cases are different and in some cases there is proof that there was no collaboration with the Nazis and as in the case of my family, on the contrary, as we where considered Traitors by the Nazi Regime.
To read that the Czech President will only sign a Treaty if its country does not have to obey the Charter of Fundamental Rights is surreal. The sooner the Czech Goverment resolves its issues with the people who suffered abuse of the Human Rights, the less its peolple will be embarrassed by the present situation.

"Dear Jiri we may not agree in most of our opinions, but please learn a little bit of history, because the Kingdom of Yugoslavia did exist in "

I agree that I was a bit imprecise about Jugoslavia.
I was of course refering to state entity Jugoslavia as known after WWII.
There was-I know that-Kingdom of Jugoslavia(until1943) as well as Kingdom of Serbia,Croatia and Slovenia(prior to 1922)-also referred to as Kingdom of Jugoslavia.

My main point in refuting your hatred of Benes is that while he was a bit naive(perhaps)about events that did not happen yet,he surely was not naive about Rakousko-Uhersko as it was all known history and surely the one that was negative and detrimental to both Czechs and Slovaks.His repudiation of Habsburgs-a spent dynasty at his time-was based on sound understanding of them.

"Not long after that, on 6 January 1929, using as a pretext the political crisis triggered by the shooting, King Alexander II abolished the Constitution, prorogued the Parliament and introduced a personal dictatorship (known as the January 6 Dictatorship, Šestojanuarska diktatura). He also changed the name of the country to Kingdom of Yugoslavia and changed the internal divisions from the 33 oblasts (županije) to nine new banovinas on 3 October"

Dear Jiri we may not agree in most of our opinions, but please learn a little bit of history, because the Kingdom of Yugoslavia did exist in 1938, was at the time the official name of that mélange of countries, if you were studying history you will get a 0 or a D in this matter: "The Kingdom of Yugoslavia (Serbian,Croatian and Slovene: Kraljevina Jugoslavija, Cyrillic script: ????????? ???????????) was a kingdom stretching from the Western Balkans to Central Europe which existed during the often-tumultuous interwar era of 1918-1941. It was formed in 1918 when merging the newly formed State of Slovenes, Croats and Serbs with the formerly independent Kingdom of Serbia. The Kingdom of Montenegro had passed to Serbian rule days earlier, while the regions of Kosovo, Vojvodina and Macedonia were parts of Serbia prior to the unification. For its first eleven years of existence it was officially called Kingdom of Serbs, Croats and Slovenes (Serbo-Croatian: Kraljevina Srba, Hrvata i Slovenaca; Cyrillic: ????????? ????, ?????? ? ?????????; Slovene: Kraljevina Srbov, Hrvatov in Slovencev), but the term Yugoslavia was its colloquial name from the very beginning".

"your hate to any Austrian, Magyar or German is a felony under International Law, you agree and support the ethnic and social cleansing practiced by Benes and the Communists after WW2 in Bohemia, Moravia and Slovakia and the assassination of thousands of innocent people as I said previously"

First of all,what you say about me is immaterial knowing your petty mind.My opinions are far more balanced than yours.
What is more important is that I have no ethnic hatred toward any nationality although I surely have a very strong opinions about false sophistry of some individuals within the nations with their various "causes."
Finally, dislike for anybody is not criminal -otherwise you would be a subject of prosecution for publicly slandering and libelling Benes and other politicians you do not agree with.

Got it,boy?

I understand the concern about excesses of the "odsun",however as very large majority of Czechs and Slovaks(and by the way even Vaclav Havel supports Benes Decrees even if he condemns-like I do-excesses of personal revenge)will not allow scrapping these laws which are a part of our history.

The viewpoint you presented is acknowledged and rejected.It is also one of the reasons why President Klaus insists on his adendum to Lisbon Treaty and he will get it.
The politicians with real know how and power in European Union will not accede to your revisionism of history.
If they try to do that then unity of EU is at a danger point.However the viewpoint of Posselt and others is not going to have very large impact even if it does stir a hornet's nest-so to speak.

Everybody who truly understands history knows why "Odsun" of Germans from former Czechoslovakia,Poland,Hungaria,Croatia,Serbia and other East European countries had to happen after WWII.And yes,the excesses did happen and those will be addressed.In fact they already had.
By the way,Jugoslavia did not exist in 1938.

PS: you didn't mention as well, that Benes in early 1938 wrote to the PM of the ex Yugoslavia that they should NOT fear about Hitler's intentions, and when I quote Sir Edward Crankshaw I was speaking about "POST WAR"

Jiri is funny in one of your older posts you had categorized the then French Government as traitors to their duty towards Czechoslovakia, but you didn't mention the then British Government. You didn't mention as well, that Benes in early 1938 wrote to the PM of the ex Yugoslavia that they should fear about Hitler's intentions, that he was going to be overthrow, indeed Major General Ludwig von Beck and Field Marshall baron Erich von Witzleben were already plotting with other high ranking officers of the Armed Forces who hated Hitler and many prominent civilians (Count Helmuth James von Moltke and his cousin baron Adam von Trott zu Solz went to London with identical purpose than Otto von Habsburg), but they failed in convincing London and Paris and afterwards when they tried to kill the tyrant and his clique, even on July 20, 1944. Benes at the time (1938) was so anti Habsburg that he tried to convince every of his supporters in London not to listen Archduke Otto von Habsburg the Heir to the Crowns, in spite that Sein Kaiserliche und Königliche Hoheit was trying to convinced the Brits and French not only not to sign any agreement with Hitler but stop him right away, before and after the Anchluss of Austria, when most of his family left the country or were sent to concentration camps. But going back to your position, which is identical of the one of Benes and the current President Klaus, and not of the former great Czech intellectual and president Vaclav Havel, your hate to any Austrian, Magyar or German is a felony under International Law, you agree and support the ethnic and social cleansing practiced by Benes and the Communists after WW2 in Bohemia, Moravia and Slovakia and the assassination of thousands of innocent people as I said previously in many occasions. The apology of a crime is equal to the crime, indeed Benes was a criminal. My own family lost many of us because our resistance to the Nazis and for other reasons, they suffered persecution, death and confiscation of properties by the Gestapo and the SS, and then Benes did the same, he was a monster. A man whose hate was so great that he decided with Stalin in Moscow in 1943 to destroy anyone who was not Slavic or "pure Czech" after the war, the same argument used by Hitler and his lunatic idea of the "Arian race". No Sir they are not going accept any of Klaus "suggestions" or he signs the treaty or you will be out of the UE quite soon. As Sir Edward Crankshaw said the chapter of the massive deportation and even assassinations of all the Non Czech population of the old Dukedom of Bohemia, the lands of the martyr Saint Wenceslas was one of the most shameful period of pre war, and was comparable only with Hitler and Stalin crimes.

" In the end it was a simple decision to accept the offer of the democraticaly elected Czech polititions."


...to negotiate President's adendum to the Lisbon Treaty.
Yes Ian,this will happen and if it does and Constitution Court declares that Lisbon Treaty is conforming with Czech Repunlic's constitution,then President Klaus will indeed sign.

However,if any of these conditions are not met,the Lisbon Treaty will stay unratified.
EU officialdom knows this and will act positivelly to make sure the treaty is signed.
I hope that this is explanation good enough for anybody to understand.

"Jiri I ask the same question do you agree with Meciar the former Slovak PM and Jan Slota? Just to know who are you really, not exactly a moderate if you share this ethnic hate, which I suspect is your view.

Louis,I already said that I support the Benes Decrees,both in Czech Republic and Slovakia.
They were forged in times of Nazi Germany's occupation of former Czechoslovakia which was supported by Sudetskymi Nemcemi.(Sudeten Germans)and I must say that also by traitor France and UK.(Munich Pact.)I support "odsun."It was a right thing to do at that time.

Why can't you understand that?

Re Thomas Budesinsky; thank you for your knowledge and survival tactics on polevka. I appreciate true cultural exchange and will be careful in crucial decisions in international polevka negotiations.

Re Louis v Wetzler; In the end it was a simple decision to accept the offer of the democraticaly elected Czech polititions. The alternative; to maintain an argument in an empty room; would have led to action; brought on by refusal to accept fellow tolerance. This has been a democratic victory in tolerant debate; a Czech asset that was not to be sacrificed at the alter of personal indulgence. Mr Klaus still has a lot to offer as his fellows acknowledge; and no doubt will participate in the spirit of unity that saved him from isolation. This has ended with a good measure of compromise and due credit is a better post script than a bitter end game that has been avoided by common sense and good duty.

Czech President Vaclav Klaus indicated over the weekend that he would finally sign the European Union's Lisbon Treaty. His hesitation was the last major hurdle facing the reform agreement and German commentators say it's about time.

Czech President Vaclav Klaus finally ran out of allies. For much of the year, the European Union's most famous detractor could point to Ireland as an excuse for not signing the Lisbon Treaty. But then the Irish backed the reform agreement in a referendum. At a party conference earlier this month British conservatives briefly paid lip service to that nation's Euro-skeptics, posing as David to the EU Goliath by suggesting a referendum on the subject if they got into power -- but it quickly became clear that their strategy was tenuous at best. Even Polish President Lech Kaczynski signed the Lisbon Treaty earlier in October.

Over the weekend, Klaus finally indicated that he would do the same, telling the Czech paper Lidove Noviny that the train "is already moving so fast and has gone so far that it is probably impossible to stop it or to bring it back."

He reiterated that he doesn't think the Lisbon Treaty -- which will revamp the way the 27-member club makes decisions, strengthen the EU's role on the world stage and create the position of EU president -- is good for Europe. He indicated he would sign it anyway.

Klaus is still seeking to get a footnote added to the treaty which guarantees the validity of the Benes Decrees, a set of laws which provided for the expulsion of millions of Germans and Hungarians following the end of World War II. Klaus has said he is concerned that the human rights guarantees in the Lisbon Treaty could result in lawsuits from families of expellees seeking to regain ownership of lands now in the Czech Republic.

Klaus had been asking that the Czech Republic be granted an opt-out from the Charter of Fundamental Rights, but now says he would be happy with the kind of legal guarantees granted to Ireland. The more fundamental changes Klaus had been demanding would have made a re-ratification of the treaty necessary.

Slovakia, though, has said that, should the Czechs be granted a Benes-based opt-out, then it will demand one too. "For us, the Benes Decrees are such an important part of the rule of law that we cannot allow for Slovakia to be left in any kind of legal uncertainty," said Slovak Prime Minister Robert Fico on Czech television on Sunday.

Still, Klaus' back-pedalling removes the last major hurdle in the Lisbon Treaty's path. It's about time, say German commentators.

The centre-left French daily Le Monde on Monday writes:

"Vaclav Klaus had become almost unbearable. The 17 Czech lawmakers, who challenged the Lisbon Treaty in the Czech high court, likewise grated on the nerves of their EU partners. Their true aims were often all-too-easy to recognize. They weren't really interested in protecting their constitutional rights -- rather they wanted to throw as much sand into the works of the EU ratification machine as possible."

"Just as Klaus did, they harmed their own country's image. They were unable to convince the rest of the EU that they had fundamental concerns with the Lisbon agreement. Instead, it became clear that they only really cared about the expulsion of Germans and Hungarians out of Czechoslovakia in 1945 under the provisions of the Benes Decrees. The fact that this history has once again been placed on the EU's agenda makes a new, less one-sided discussion necessary. It doesn't, however, make it any easier."

The centre-right Le Figaro of Paris writes:

"When the Irish rejected the Lisbon Treaty in the first referendum (in June 2008), most EU member states decided to continue the ratification process because they correctly assumed that Brussels would have the Irish vote over and over again until it got the result it wanted. Klaus, on the other hand, chose to see the treaty as having been rejected unless the Irish chose to change their minds. That may have been na?ve given the balance of power between the large and small states in the European Union, but his view certainly wasn't contrary to the rules of the EU. The results of the second Irish referendum came on October 3. If one is to talk about Klaus' "delayed signature" on the Lisbon Treaty, then it is a delay of just three weeks."

The conservative German paper Die Welt stays closer to home on Monday and argues that, given how important the EU has become for German policy, Chancellor Angela Merkel should add a Europe Minister to her cabinet.

"Germany pays ?8 billion to Brussels every year -- that is almost double what France owes (?4.5 billion) and fully eight times what Great Britain pays (?1 billion). But when it comes to the struggle for influence and power, Germany often doesn't do as well as countries like France, Great Britain or Holland. A Europe Minister, resident in the chancellery, who, with the full support of Chancellor Angela Merkel, coordinates German EU policy, lays out strategy and improves German influence in Brussels, is badly needed."

"Some 70 percent of all national laws originate in Brussels. Those who want to be part of their creation must know early on what their interests are, and should not have to wait until the draft laws have already been hammered out."

"A number of countries, like France, have had Europe ministers for a long time. And they have been able to increase their influence in Brussels."

Charles Hawley, London

Jiri I ask the same question do you agree with Meciar the former Slovak PM and Jan Slota? Just to know who are you really, not exactly a moderate if you share this ethnic hate, which I suspect is your view.

The American Hungarian Federation? (AHF), a non-profit 501(c)(3) organization, was founded in 1906 in Cleveland, Ohio. The largest Hungarian-American umbrella organization in the United States, AHF is also among the oldest ethnic organizations in the country. AHF was established as an association of Hungarian societies, institutions and churches to "defend the interest of Americans of Hungarian origin in the United States."

Over the past 100 years, AHF's mission has broadened to include support of people of Hungarian descent on both sides of the Atlantic and in the successor states of the Carpathian Basin. The American Hungarian Federation strives to unite the American Hungarian community through work that supports common goals. AHF is a national, non-partisan, independent umbrella organization representing the interests of its member organizations and the Hungarian American community.

Common Ground, Inclusivity, Reaching Out
Miért van ez Angolul?

AHF believes in focusing on common ground issues and working with ALL Hungarian-American individuals and organizations, regardless of political, religious, or other affiliation. We have all heard, "a nyelvben él a nép" (in the language lives the people). While positive in principle and important historically as a measure of national identity, today there are many Hungarian Americans who feel strongly about their heritage but may not speak the language. Many of these individuals have felt alienated. With the lack of educational opportunity, others never had a chance to learn Hungarian properly. AHF feels these individuals represent an important and largely untapped resource or new energy. AHF's President ex-Officio, Stephen Varga, who doesn't speak Hungarian states, "I dare anyone to find someone that feels more Hungarian than I do." If you know him, you know not to dare him.

AHF strives to make sure its communication includes English to 1) reach out to 2nd and 3rd generation Hungarian-Americans who may have lost their ability to speak Hungarian, but who have a love for their heritage and desire to work toward a better future for their people; and 2) to communicate our message to the Western Media and to the world. Hungarian causes have been largely unknown outside the Hungarian community. Hungarians Rather than tell each other about our problems in Hungarian, we must make others aware of our issues and seek friends and allies who may have been unaware of our concerns due to poor communication or exclusive use of Hungarian.

Hungarian and American - from the start!

AHF's Motto, "Fidelissimus ad Mortem" (Faithful Unto Death), was taken from a letter to Benjamin Franklin written by the Father of the US Light Cavalry when he offered his sword in service to the United States. The former Hussar Officer, Col. Commandant Mihaly Kovats, whose life and service is celebrated annually by US Military Cadets at the Citadel Military Academy, died in battle against the British in Charleston, S.C. in 1779. Our Motto reflects our virtues and historically and inextricably ties Hungarians and Americans together and symbolizes Hungarians' contribution to America right from the start.

It would be helpful if everybody knew who does AHf represent.How about that Louis?
At least we could make up our mind about neutrality(or not)of their information and the interpretation of their data.

Slovaks confirm Benes Decrees: "Hungarians are the cancer of the Slovak nation, without delay we need to remove them from the body of the nation" - Jan Slota. AHF releases statement on the Benes Decrees and recent extremist developments in Slovakia. "Having taken a step that has fuelled ethnic hatred and assaulted good relations with Hungary, the Slovak Parliament on September 20, 2007 adopted a resolution proposed by extremist Jan Slota ratifying and confirming the Benes decrees. Those decrees shamefully imposed collective guilt on the Hungarian (and German) population of Czechoslovakia in 1945 and stripped them of their citizenship, rights and property without compensation. Czechoslovakia also pursued a policy of ethnic cleansing in southern Slovakia. The debilitations continue to affect many of the victims of the crimes committed in post-World War II Czechoslovakia.



The concept of collective guilt is abhorrent to Americans and to anyone committed to the rule of law, human rights and democracy. Rather than affirm the inviolability of the Benes decrees, Slovakia should reject them, provide legal redress to remedy their continuing and discriminatory effect and thereby adopt the values shared by the trans-Atlantic community of nations.


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

7/5/2005 - The Benes Decrees and Post Communist-era Developments - Bryan Dawson, AHF Information Office, Washington, D.C.

The 1945 Benes Decrees claimed collective World War II responsibility of Germans and Hungarians living in Czechoslovakia, and deprived them of their rights, their property and expelled many of them from the country. The Decrees, formally, are still in force. Austria, Germany, and Hungary are having called for the repeal of the laws.

According to the Decrees, 2.5 million ethnic Germans or Austrians (Sudetendeutsch) and approximately 400,000 Hungarians were lost their Czechoslovakian citizenship, their land was expropriated and they were exiled. This transition was carried out over 1945-46, and was in many cases badly administered and brutal. Some 85,000 people lost their lives. Ethnic Czechs were moved in to fill the empty towns.

There are presently about 778,000 ethnic Hungarians, or Magyars, living in scattered settlements along the southern border areas of the Slovakia and constitute the largest ethnic minority in the country. This is 12.8% of the Slovak Republic's population of 5,353,000 as estimated from a 1991 census and country population review from the UN. These numbers are easily argued as many ethnic Hungarians do not self-identify to avoid discrimination. In either case, these Magyars are what remains of the Hungarians in what was "Upper Hungary" for about 1000 years until 1919, when Czechoslovakia was created.

As written on "Hungarians in the Slovak Republic" from Slovakia.org, "Since the 1989 "velvet revolution," Slovaks have had greater control over their region and nationalist sentiment has been growing. This has resulted in a series of Slovak laws restricting the use of the Hungarian language and what is perceived by the Hungarians as a campaign advocating racial discrimination against them by many Slovak politicians and the Slovak media. This anti-Hungarian sentiment has been made worse by the elimination of the moderating influence of the Czechs on Slovakia's relationship with its Hungarian minority. The elimination of Czech influence became complete on January 1 1993 when Czechoslovakia formally divided into Slovakia and the Czech Republic. The anti-Hungarian sentiment is made worse by perceptions that Hungary is using Slovakia's ethnic Hungarians as part of an expansionist policy, Whether or not this is actually the case, it is clear that Hungary does take an active interest in the well being of ethnic Hungarians living outside its borders, especially the large populations in Slovakia and Romania."

Chronology of Events

Despite EU pressures and hopes that EU accession by Slovakia, anti-Hungarian nationalism remains a threat to regional stability. Some recent highlights from Slovakia.org:

October 26, 1991: The Slovak regional parliament votes to make Slovak the only official language in the region. The rights of minorities to use their own languages will continue to be respected. Hungarians can still use their native language in all official venues in communities where they constitute at least 20% of the population. Deputies of the Slovak National Party (SNP) walk out in protest, demanding that the law bar ethnic Hungarians and other minorities from conducting any kind of business in their mother tongues. This is followed by formal protests and hunger strikes by SNP supporters which continue well into November.

June 18, 1992: Reuters reports that in southern Slovakia some bilingual signs have been defaced and that slogans such as "Slovakia for the Slovaks" adorn the walls of houses.

June 30, 1992: The Financial Times reports that Hungary has called for autonomy for ethnic Hungarians in Slovakia.

July, 1992: The European Community expresses concern about the status of Slovakia's national minorities and the Council of Europe Secretary-General Catherine Lalumi?re visits Bratislava to discuss the matter with Slovak Prime Minister Meciar.

August 10, 1992: The New York Times reports that Slovak Prime Minister Meciar announced in parliament, when referring to Hungarians, that any ethnic politicians who roil national tensions will be treated as "political criminals."

September, 1992: Ethnic Hungarians accuse Slovak police of brutally beating soccer fans from Budapest at a soccer match while Slovak fans cheer. Police claim they were merely subduing rowdy fans that had started fights.

September, 1992: Signs showing the names of ethnically mixed towns in Hungarian are ordered removed and state-run television bans those names from Hungarian-language television programs.

September, 1992: Prime Minister Meciar rejects any accord with Hungary on the minority issue calling the matter an internal affair.

September 1, 1992: The Slovakian parliament passes a draft constitution. Hungarian deputies walk out after parliament rejects their demands for cultural, educational, and territorial autonomy. The new constitution recognizes Hungarian as an official language only in regions where ethnic Hungarians constitute at least 20% of the population.

October 19, 1992: Reuters reports that permission has been refused for the creation of a Hungarian school system in Slovakia and that a proposal by Hungarian deputies to create a Hungarian university had been rejected.

January 2, 1993: Reuters reports that under a law passed last year, all official documents including birth certificates must be in Slovak as must all public ceremonies. This means that ethnic Hungarians must give their children Slovak names.

April 27, 1993: Slovak President Michal Kovac says that Slovakia will never grant autonomy to its Hungarian minority. His statement follows renewed calls by Coexistence for Hungarians to be given autonomy in districts in southern Slovakia.

May 13, 1993: Prime Minister Vladimir Meciar says that his government is ready to lift restrictions on the rights of ethnic Hungarians in Slovakia in accordance with the Council of Europe's demands. This includes lifting the ban on the use of Hungarian first names and the mandatory use of a Slovak ending on all female last names. Slovakia wants to join the Council but has been prevented from doing so because of its perceived discrimination against minorities. Note: Meciar's HZDS party never keeps its promise and those reforms that do occur are enacted by another government after the HZDS party is ousted.

June 8, 1993: The Irish Times reports that in order to join the Council of Europe, Slovakia plans to change local government boundaries in Hungarian populated areas. The borders currently run from north to south, slicing up the Hungarian population. Note: This promise is, to date, not kept. In fact, the government later proposes a redistricting plan which would make Hungarians a minority in all districts. This law passes in 1996.

June 30, 1993: Slovakia becomes a member of the Council of Europe despite Hungary's reservations about Slovakia's treatment of its ethnic Hungarian minority.

July, 1993: Prime Minister Meciar refuses to sign into law a bill that would have legalized the official use of Hungarian first and family names.

July 2, 1993: The St. Petersburg Times reports that the present demands of Hungarians in Slovakia include: the right to education in Hungarian beyond the elementary school level, the right to Hungarian street signs and the right to give Hungarian first names to their children.

August 12-16, 1993: Ethnic Hungarians block traffic through their village in protest against a government decision to remove a road sign written in Hungarian. The village later erects signs with question marks to replace the Hungarian-language signs. In June, the government allowed Hungarian signs to be put up alongside Slovak ones but the permission was rescinded on July 14 and communities were given until the end of July to remove the signs.

August 27, 1993: For the first time ever, Slovakia's ethnic Hungarians hold a mass demonstration in the town of Komarno to defend their rights and demand the government's compliance with the Council of Europe's recommendations on minority rights.

September 24, 1993: Slovakia and Romania agree to coordinate their policies on the question of national minorities. Both countries have sizable ethnic Hungarian populations.

January 2, 1994: 500 ethnic Slovaks demonstrate in the southern Slovakian town of Surany against self-rule for ethnic Hungarians.

January 8, 1994: About 3,500 ethnic Hungarians, mostly local elected officials and parliament members, meet in the southern Slovakian town of Komarno to demand greater autonomy.

February 2, 1994: Slovak Foreign Minister Josef Maravcik accuses Hungary of feeding "irredentist tendencies" within Slovakia's ethnic Hungarian population. Note: Slovakian politicians repeatedly accuse Hungary of fuelling Slovakia's ethnic Hungarian population's demands for cultural rights and separatism throughout the period covered by this chronology.

March 11, 1994: Slovakia's government is ousted by a vote of no confidence.

March 14, 1994: Josef Maravcik is formally recognized as Prime Minister at the head of a 5-party coalition which will act as a caretaker government until elections next September.

May 27, 1994: Parliament passes a law allowing the country's ethnic Hungarians to officially use Hungarian names. Deputies from the SNP and the HZDS storm out of the chamber in protest claiming that the law does not comply with the rules of Slovak grammar.

June 3, 1994: Parliament narrowly rejects a law which would allow signs in both Slovak and Hungarian in towns with at least a 20% Hungarian population. Hungarian deputies vote against the law because villages named after Slovak heroes are to be excluded from the law's provisions.

July 7, 1994: Parliament passes a law allowing some 590 Slovak towns and villages with at least a 20% ethnic Hungarian population to use bilingual signs.

March 19, 1995: Hungary and Slovakia sign a treaty agreeing on borders and the protection of ethnic minorities. Slovakia agrees to a clause calling for "appropriate laws or autonomous authorities" in areas where the country's ethnic Hungarians constitute a majority. In return, Hungary recognizes the inviolability of Slovakia's borders.

March 21, 1995: The World Coalition of Hungarians, which claims to represent 2.5 million Hungarians living outside of Hungary, states that the Hungary-Slovakia treaty constitutes nothing but empty promises.

March 27, 1995: Max Duraj, chairman of Coexistence, announces that despite the Hungary-Slovakia friendship treaty, Slovakia's ethic Hungarians still want self-rule. Many Slovak nationalists think that the treaty went too far.

July 27, 1995: The Prime Ministers of Slovakia and Romania agree to boost bilateral ties and take a common stand on the sensitive issue of treatment of their large ethnic Hungarian minorities.

4 August 1995: Laszlo Nagy and two other ethnic Hungarian minority parties' chairmen were being prosecuted for their statements allegedly defaming the republic, according to complaints lodged by the government Slovak National Party.

25 October 1995: Slovak Culture Minister Ivan Hudec said a new version of the state language law would restore the rights of Slovaks and correct for ethnic Hungarians having had too many rights. He also accused ethnic Hungarian politicians of reacting unreasonably to the new version of the bill.

12 June 1996: Slovak President Michal Kovac, visiting Hungary, urged his own government to pass legislation to protect the language rights of Slovakia's Hungarian minority.

1 August 1996: Far-right members of Slovakia's ruling coalition said it would propose the country withdraw from a basic treaty with neighbouring Hungary over the issue of ethnic Hungarian abroad.

7 September 1996: The Slovak cultural and educational organization Matica Slovenska has warned the Council of Europe of "Hungarian irredentism in Slovakia." On 25 August, their supporters protested against a demand for autonomy for the half-million strong Hungarian minority in south Slovakia and alleged violation of the rights of Slovaks in that area.

10 October 1996: Slovakia, appealing to be included in the first wave of new NATO members, said it was doing more for ethnic rights than some NATO states. Foreign Minister Pavel Hamzik said a proposed law protecting minority languages was all that was needed to improve human rights. The U.S. State Department said on 3 October that Washington was concerned about indications that the Slovak government's commitment to democracy had been weakening.

23 October 1996: The traditional division of the country into four regions has been discarded in favour of a system with eight regions centred on the country's eight largest cities. In addition, these eight regions are further divided into 79 district levels governments. With the new district organization, ethnic Hungarians would not be the majority of any district. At present the Hungarian minority is well-represented in Parliament and local governments, but not in the central government.

These continued actions on the part of Slovakia add fuel to an already explosive situation. Oppressive "Language laws," preventing education, and forcing parents to choose certain names has no place in a new Europe of the 21st century. AHF will continue to monitor the situation and assist the Hungarian community in support of its right to free-association, basic human rights, dignity, and national self-determination. - Special thanks to slovakia.org for the partial chronology and other material above.

Slovak Premier Fico just recently(Czech media)announced that Slovakia also will demand the similar garantee as Czech Republic re: Lisbon treaty.

EU officialdom will have to listen and act on this if they want Lisbon Treaty to be ratified by all.(if it is not ratified by all,it is a dead Treaty.

Louis, you forget that the CR was admitted to the EU in 2004, before any mention of Lisbon Treaty. Klaus is a very principled man. He is, as he says, a dissident, just like Havel was, "was" Louis. And besides, despite having a strong liking for Havel, I must say, how can you take anything terribly seriously from a man who considers Frank Zappa the epitome of the art of music. He is terribly quirky and not a man to make the hard call, as we say in Australia. And he is more left than right. I prefer Klaus' attachment to the economist and philosopher Friedrich Hayek who wrote The Road to Serfdom. What is Havel attached to apart from his mumbo jumbo plays and Czech vanilkovy rohliky?

I must say Louis, you are a strange bird for me to be communicating with. In Australia, with its flat landscape and flat society, most people these days eschew mention of privilege and aristocracy, despite our having a Queen as head of state. Privilege and aristocracy have been sublimated by the free market and rampant egalitarianism into expensive 4WD's and two storey villas, on the beachfront if possible, and with all the trimmings, including a cleaner and someone to do the ironing. What a comedy is the human comedy.

Karel (like our last blessed Emperor and King) my grandmother was born in München from a prestigous Bavarian family and we have Czech ancestry as well, and I am not against Czechs, to say that is ridiculous I never said that. I am against those Czechs who acted with a total contempt and hate for others like Edvard Benes and Vaclav Klaus now, a man who forgot that his country has been admitted in the EU, so if he doesn't want the Treaty of Lisbon he must ask to the parliament to leave the Union.

Louis, I feel no shame whatsoever in describing Klaus as a great man. He is a great man for his stand on so-called climate change, and he is a great man for doing his utmost to protect the sovereignty of his people.

You have at least twice made mention of Klaus' Bavarian ancestry in recent comments. Do you have something against Bavarians(as well as Czechs)?

Jiri,

"Well,it is almost spring in your Australia.I bet that you are enjoying yourself while we are descending to the fall and winter."

Jiri, spring in Australia is not like spring in your neck of the woods. True, the weather changes for the better, in southern Australia where I live, but in northern Australia it becomes very hot and humid with temperatures of 35-40C daily for months on end. And we don't have "fall" like you do, excepting the exotic trees and shrubs planted here and there in the cities and towns. Eucalypts and other evergreen native trees stretch all the way across the southern part of the continent. The leaves don't colour like yours, they just fall off and new ones grow all year round. It's a bit of a strange country really.

Ian Dowie, you say, "in 1939 a treaty was signed and honored." When I think of 1939 the only treaty I know of is the Molotov-Von Ribentropp Pact between Germany and the USSR from August of that year. Is this the treaty you have in mind? By the way, this treaty was honoured for only about twenty one months.

Re Karel Burles, in 1939 a treaty was signed and honored. Without that binding treaty you may not have been able to be in the E.U. today. This generation have read history and worked at healing the 'breaking of treaties by irresponsible egomaniacs' who caused mayhem and murder.
The healing process is being hampered by the same ideology of individual self importance. Last week saw a movement in the Czech Republic that recognises the mistakes of the past will not be a ball and chain that they tolerate. As in 1989; the desire to reach out and heal through democratic free debate is rising again. Holding court to fear over hope and courage was swept out the way last week. I have to feed my cat and have a shave; its Sunday morning; and I have no more to offer the dead soap opera, its over, signed and sealed.

Jiri; your missing the point; last week saw the signing of the Lisbon Treaty in The Czech Republic; it has been done by those competent to do so. All thas left is the pen wavering in empty space loking for a top pocket to find a useful parking spot.

" I am not only a "Habsburg historian" I got a PhD in International Law and soon a PhD in European History. By the way, you never argued in good faith, you never answered in good faith, you had avoid all the time to answer facts, avoiding facts which are real, even you had ignored what most of the Czech intelligentsia and most prominent intellectuals stated in favour of the Lisbon Treaty, "

So who cares how you perceive yourself?The specialized knowledge seldom confers wisdom on anybody and you are certainly not one of those who are lucky enough to be both knowledgeable and wise.
Tell me the reason why should I discuss any topic on your limited terms.
I believe that most of my arguments are based on sound common sense while yours are based on maudling and silly attachment to failed monarchy of Habsburg to exclussion of all other viewpoints.

I hardly need any irrational "discourses"from you although you are free to express them.Some people with no knowledge might be somewhat impressed with your "qualifications" but do not count me among those.
Your common sense is nonexistent.

"Incidentally, any amendment to my country's constitution requires a referendum. Was a referendum held in every EU country in regard to the Lisbon amendments to the existing European constitution?"

I agree with you on referenda.Why would any country want top cede their own independence to extra-national entity is beyond my understanding.The country's constitution should in all cases take a prominence over the artificial statehood.

As far as President Klaus signing the Lisbon treaty,it is going to happen under the conditions already mentioned.
President Klaus himself said that it is virtually impossible to stop the train that is out of control(my phraseology).However,those conditions will have to be met in order for him to sign.

Well,it is almost spring in your Australia.I bet that you are enjoying yourself while we are descending to the fall and winter.

Karel ich bin ein Wohlgeboren Reichfreiherrn, bitte schön. And what you say about this corrupt and immoral "Herr Klaus" from Bavarian ancestry is shameful, a hero of paper and soon back to the streets as all Europe hopes. Havel is one of the greatest personalities in your modern history, Klaus just a poor, little guy shame on you.

Jiri Hubacek, you are the only irrelevant figure in this discussion. I am not only a "Habsburg historian" I got a PhD in International Law and soon a PhD in European History. By the way, you never argued in good faith, you never answered in good faith, you had avoid all the time to answer facts, avoiding facts which are real, even you had ignored what most of the Czech intelligentsia and most prominent intellectuals stated in favour of the Lisbon Treaty, your arguments are pure make up and inventions and full of hate towards anyone who doesn't share your poor and immaterial arguments, which are not based in history, International Law (or perhaps for you the treaty signed secretly by Edvard Benes with Stalin is something to take into account?) or anything serious. Again you are what the Germans called in the 1930's to those guys who supported Hitler "typischer Spiessburger gezeichnet"

Herr Wetzler, the old saying, "Every hero becomes a bore at last" applies here. Havel was a a man of his time, the early to mid 1990's. His star has passed and now is Klaus' time. He is the man of the moment. He is now a hero. This has nothing whatsoever to do with ultra right politics. What disingenuous rubbish.

Vaclav Havel is a true hero, he struggled against the Communists for years, which is not the case of Herr Klaus. The Communist regime never granted Vaclav Havel the chance to travel abroad without consequences, meanwhile Vaclav Klaus was free to go anywhere; he had high connections within the Government in Prague, in times of the Warsaw Pact. Havel is right to condemn the cynical attitude of Klaus a demagogue and populist, who thanks to the Treaty of Lisbon is "popular" amongst ultra nationalist circles in the Czech Republic, at the end Prague will sign the agreement as was signed by Warsaw, London and Dublin. By the way, the objections of the first two countries were accepted because these didn't change what the Treaty of Lisbon agreed, which is not the case of what Herr Klaus put on the table. There is no one country in Europe, even the UK, that will accept a modification to the treaty, this will force to start all the negotiation proceedings again and all countries should approve the changes, which is totally unrealistic.

Jiri, I am not going to go over old ground. And I am not going to write a long dissertation here. The fact is, Klaus is playing for time, and time may very well be his biggest friend. And if it's not, then I predict he would rather resign than sign. Eezy, peezy, lemon squeezy.

This is not a matter of confusion in any regard. It's more a matter of psychology.

Incidentally, any amendment to my country's constitution requires a referendum. Was a referendum held in every EU country in regard to the Lisbon amendments to the existing European constitution?

"At bottom, the issue is not Klaus, but rather the document itself; it always is."

So what is your point,Karel?
The treaty and President are two separate issues(so to speak).
The Treaty is ready to be signed by President Klaus and he is suggesting that eventually he will sign it-pending the conditions I already wrote about.

What is the confusion?

Jiri, you say, "He(Klaus), himself hinted at it in his recent interview.""Hinted". How tantalising.

At bottom, the issue is not Klaus, but rather the document itself; it always is.

Ian, your "This week made it very clear, that the comming generation now have the best chance to free from the chains of histrorical dogma, to refuse to be tied to outdated bitterness; and define thier own destiny" put me in mind of George Santayana's famous quote of " those who forget the lessons of history are fated to repeat them".

Is that what you are suggesting, that the coming generation, fewer in numbers than the previous one owing to declining birth rates, forget the bitter lessons of the past and thereby learn the hard way, re-invent the wheel, so to speak?

Ian,
Louis "historical" contribution are biased interpretations of history that does not take in account any other interpretations.
You must be aware that history in general is subject to various interpretations by opposing viewpoints.
Victors of any conflict are the ones that prevail in advancing their interpretation.

Perhaps you heard of so called "social historians" that revisit the history and completelly revise it to their particular vievpoint.
Well,Louis is not social historian but he most certainly is what I would call a "Habsburg historian."
His interpretation is certainly irrelevant.

"Jiri, you are wrong. Klaus will not append his signature to the Lisbon Treaty, "not" here being categorical; never. Put yourself in his shoes. Would you, now?"

But he will.He,himself hinted at it in his recent interview.Of course he will only do it under the conditions I already mentioned previously.

Re Louis v Wetzler; thank you for your contributions. The historical personality interaction seems to have been key in this 'drama' In the beginning a few 'off the cuff' remarks between two men amy well have driven Presidential self appraisal and definintion to this dillema.
The changing times; rapid evoloution; with historical indoctrination; have grounded it all to a halt. At least the current children will have history to study, and maybe this protracted soap opera may benefit a future generation with data to guide them through national and treaty duties as yet unseen. The Lisbon treaty has been irrelevant; a side dish in a much larger meal; where many once sat at a table.
This week showed that the treaty is signed; a few crumbs; are all that is left; just the planning of the pen movement; a minor ceremony, a post script.
Soon it will be back to politics, the vacum that left the door open for the soap opera, will be filled with sense of purpose. Rehabilitation of election manifesto's, candidates; polls; a new political dawn. In the rear view mirror; personal ambition will sit knowing that its had it's best meal. The saving grace; the hunger of a new generation; at last; further away from ideological cobwebs; will forge ahead. Many will retire; many be born; and out of it all will emerge a Czech Republic in a United Europe that can never return to nationalistic destructive relations.
This week made it very clear, that the comming generation now have the best chance to free from the chains of histrorical dogma, to refuse to be tied to outdated bitterness; and define thier own destiny.

Very interesting comments. My family is among those expelled by Bennes Decres. In the case of our family it is relevant to say that they were Czech Natives, and were forced to work for the Prussian and Austrian Empires. We had all our properties confiscated whem we didn t turn Austrian or Prussian. It is a very complex matter. My great grand father was considered a traitor in Germany after WW1 (Karl Max Lichnowsky), and his wife, novelist: Mechtilde Lichnowsky had her books forbidden and burned by Nazis. During WW2 she was inprisioned in her house in Hradec Nad Moravici, and had to report constantly to the Gestapo. In 1945 she was expelled from Czechkoslovaquia with her son and grand son (My father), for they unfortunatly were linving in German territory and had German documents. Very difficult to understand....

The treaty may very well be signed, but not by the current president of the CR.

A man once ignored most Generals; sacked and promoted at will. Pitted one against the other maintaining he knew best. Pressure from within his own party was stamped out; he continued.
The end difference here will be the treaty will be signed, November the 17th will have a ink all over the Lisbon treaty; and soon the ink will be as dry as a a poor tear that needed to be shed; but like all tears tolerated.

Tomase, doufam ze pilulky pracovaly a ses us poradne vykakal.

Jiri, you are wrong. Klaus will not append his signature to the Lisbon Treaty, "not" here being categorical; never. Put yourself in his shoes. Would you, now?

Now, if Spindelegger were the name of a Czech woman she would be Spindeleggerova. Bit of a mouthful, what?

"Austrian ÖVP Foreign Minister Michael Spindelegger has rejected any changes in the EU's Lisbon Treaty to satisfy Czech President Vaclav Klaus."

And who cares what he says?Austria has no special connection to Czechs since 1914(thank God!)

In large scheme of things,he is almost as irrelevant as the Habsburgs.

President Klaus will sign Lisbon Treaty under two conditions.
One is that if Constitution Court finds that all the clauses in this Treaty are in accord with the constitution of Czech Republic.
The second condition (a very reasonable one)is that there will be guarantee(by adendum to treaty)that some articles of EU charter of right in this treaty will not be valid to conditions that existed before EU's establishment.
While many people say that this guarantee is automatic,President Klaus would like to have it on record in written form.
As European officials would want this treaty signed and ratified by all before the UK election.this guarantee will be provided-very likely in the summit at the end of October.

Please note that Czech government now agreed to bring it forward too.

Thomas; I am glad you got 'Normix' and I hope your bowels are in a suitiable form of recovery that enable you to ride the trams without panic.

As an American working in the Czech Republic in the 1990's, this issue came up and I read about it in the Prague Post. It stated that Germany was demanding an apology from the Czech Republic government for the atrocities commented against the Sudeteland German residents when they were forced marched from the Czech Republic after WWII. Having visited many areas of the beautiful country of the Czech Republic and having visited former German concentration camps in the Czech Republic and another village near Teplice which was destroyed by the Germans and familes killed, it was hard for me to understand why Germany felt they deserved an apology.
From my prospective, having never endured the occupation of my country by another nation, I feel I would also have anger and retribution against those who had brutally occupied my country, especially if I had watched my family, friends and neighbors murdered.
I know it is not easy to set aside the bitterness caused by war. However, I understand why Klaus would want the "Opt out" for the Lisbon treaty. He is a pragmatic man. However, Havel is a kind and forgiving man. From my point of view only.

Re Martin Smith; Regarding the 'principle' of 'Soviet Europe'; despite all the reports from European intelegence services, including most indepth, the Czech security services. Where does that place Mr Klaus pictured in the Kremlin this month denying the overwhelming evidence produced by multiple European security services?

The Czech President's refusal to sign the Lisbon treaty is absurd, irresponsible and damaging to the country, according to his predecessor, Vaclav Havel.

Mr Havel, 73, the playwright who has saint-like status in the Czech Republic, used an event to mark the Velvet Revolution of 1989 to attack President Klaus yesterday for holding out on the treaty, which has been ratified in the 26 other EU countries and awaits the signature of the Czech President to come into force.

Mr Klaus has demanded an opt-out from the treaty's Charter of Fundamental Rights, an 11th-hour move for a concession. They were granted to Britain and Poland during negotiations in 2007. The Czech move is seen by many as a delaying tactic. Mr Klaus fears that German families expelled after the Second World War might reclaim properties.

"This is absurd for many reasons," Mr Havel said. "I believe that President Klaus, before being elected, should have explained his intentions, put his cards on the table, so that those who voted for him could know what to expect.

"Now his behaviour damages the Czech Republic in Europe. It is irresponsible ... I do believe that everyone will come to their senses and the Lisbon treaty will be ratified."

The rivalry between the two goes back a long way. However, the playwright usually avoids invitations to attack his successor, whom he brought into the post-communist Government because it was short of economic experts.

Given his reputation among the Czechs, Mr Havel's comments may add to the pressure on the President to sign. Mr Klaus has contacted David Cameron about plans to call a British referendum on the treaty if the Tory leader comes to power and it is still unratified.

Mr Havel said that he agreed with Aleksandr Vondra, his former aide that the constitutional court should be asked to rule on whether Mr Klaus should have a final say on the treaty.

Mr Vondra said: "I do not agree with his belief that the treaty might be a threat to us, but of course he has set his terms [for his signature]. So what is important now is that the Government communicates with him, so if that condition is met he might guarantee he will sign by the end of the year."

He added: "If he refuses to give this guarantee then the Government should address the Constitutional Court with a request to decide who should be competent to sign in the Czech Republic."

Jan Fischer, the Prime Minister, said that his Cabinet and Mr Klaus were in talks about a treaty opt-out. He added that EU leaders could agree on a declaration which could be incorporated in a protocol to Croatia's EU accession treaty.

During a visit to Moscow on Wednesday Mr Klaus said: "The conditions that I have made for signing the agreement are serious and the idea that I can forget what I have said is not well founded."

The constitutional court has banned him from ratification pending its verdict on the treaty's compliance with the constitution, which is expected on October 27, two days before an EU summit.

THE ECONOMIST THIS WEEK

"IF THE outside world were begging for a delay to the Lisbon treaty, the Czech Republic's famously contrarian president would probably hurry it along. As it is, he is enjoying a last-ditch attempt by his Eurosceptic allies to get it blocked by their country's constitutional court. No matter that the case is flimsy: the court has already declared the key elements of the treaty "not at odds" with the Czech constitution. And no matter that Mr Klaus detests the court interfering in the executive branch of government. The new hearing, brought by his allies in the Czech Senate, neatly ties his hands: he cannot sign the treaty, even if he wants to.

The court's chairman, Pavel Rychetsky, says the first hearing may be at the end of October. He wants the verdict as soon as possible (meaning quicker than the previous case, which took seven months). Unlike another European initiative, the social charter, which Mr Klaus has refused to sign since the Czech parliament passed it in 2003; the treaty should then go through: Mr Klaus seems to accept that. He dismisses the idea of spinning things out until a new British government can call a referendum. Too late for that, he says.

The clearest but unkindest explanation for Mr Klaus's conduct is a desire to be noticed more than his predecessor, the well known and outstanding personality who is Vaclav Havel. The playwright-philosopher is revered in just the liberal-minded circles that Mr Klaus sees as soft-headed and elitist. Given that, any outside pushing will be counterproductive. But a phone call from Moscow might work: despite his Atlanticist views, Mr Klaus is a friend of Vladimir Putin, and why? This is another question for the psychologists".

To those who don't know too much about Bohemian or Czech history, do you know that King Lajos II of Bohemia and Hungary legitimate king of those countries, including Croatia was killed in the Battle of Mohács while leading his forces against Suleiman the Magnificent of the Ottoman Empire on 29 August 1526. He had no legitimate children. Ferdinand was elected as his successor in Kingdom of Bohemia and Hungary, but the Hungarian throne was contested by János Szapolyai, who ruled the areas of the kingdom conquered by the Turks as an Ottoman client. The Bohemian throne and the lands of the Kingdom of Saint Stefan were inherited by his sister Anna, married to his cousin Ferdinand of Habsburg, future Emperor of Austria, Apostolic King of Hungary, King of Bohemia, King of Croatia, Margrave of Moravia and Sovereign of all the lands of the Holy German Roman Empire. So if you will start speaking about history try to be a little bit more accurate. By the way, most of the landowners who supported a Lutheran King in Prague for a while, and were disposed a century later, recovered their properties twenty years later, this was the case of the Chotek, Czernin, Lobkowitz, Wbrna, Potiorek, Windisch-Grätz, Kinský, Wilckzek, and dozens of other families. Do you know that your legitimate Habsburg sovereigns ruled their countries with such fairness, that Bohemia and Moravia were the most advanced kingdoms of the monarchy? You had benefited a lot from the Habsburg rule, and your kingdom had a vast representation in the Reichsrat, the Parliament in Vienna after the whole empire was transformed in a constitutional monarchy. His Imperial and Royal Highness Archduke Franz Ferdinand was completely pro-Czech not only because he was married to Countess Sophie Chotek von Chotkowa und Wognin, a true Czech from all sides (her mother was a Kinský), the "Thronfolger" had his own ideas about the empire, he wanted a Federal monarchy with a Parliament in Prague and four others in the main kingdoms of the monarchy, after his tragic assassination, his nephew tried unsuccessfully to continue these policies but was too late, WW1 started and all the efforts towards peace of the Blessed Sovereign Karl I of Austria, King Karol VI of Hungary and Bohemia, were in vain. By the way, two last things Thomas Masaryk new quite well these plans and he personally approved them, he spoke about them with Count Czernin in 1913, before the war, and he said that a federal monarchy was going not only to save the Empire but will allow a more prosperous Central Europe to develop all its energies. Last but not least, Winston Churchill never new the plans of Benes, who was aware was Harold MacMillan the same perverse who hand over millions of Russians to Stalin, like Poles and other anti communists. Charles de Gaulle thought that the Benes decrees were applied under the pressure of Stalin and the Communist Party, which was true, remember the treaty signed by Benes with Stalin in Moscow in 1943. On April 12, 1940, Seine Kaiserliche und Königliche Majestät die Kaiserin Zita and her family, including Archduke Otto the heir of the thrones arrived into exile in Canada, Hitler ordered the extermination of all Habsburgs as their worst enemies, you may had forgotten this little detail, like the Hohenberg brothers were sent to Dachau for six years, and when they were free, Benes expelled them for Konopischt, not letting them to take their personal belongings, confiscated first by the Republic and during the occupation by the Nazis, the same fate of Prince Kinský's domains and properties, some four million Czechs were disposed from everything, just because they were Magyars, or from Austrian (very few Germans) origin, funny Kafka never wrote any of his master pieces in Czech, only in German and partially in English and French, so he should be a "collaborator" but he was dead when the Nazis arrived. What people like Klaus (from German ancestry) want is that the whole world accepts the ethnic cleansing organized by the Communists and by Benes after his encounter with Stalin in Moscow, even before the extremely sick and weak F.D. Roosevelt accept all Stalin's conditions, which included a purge of "Germans" in all Eastern and Central Europe and all "anti social elements of their societies". This is why some three million people died in post WW2, mainly in Siberia and even en their own countries.

Austrian ÖVP Foreign Minister Michael Spindelegger has rejected any changes in the EU's Lisbon Treaty to satisfy Czech President Vaclav Klaus.

Alexander Graf von Schallenberg, a spokesman for the People's Party (ÖVP) foreign minister, said today: "We want clarification of what Klaus really wants and of whether his position is that of the Czech government."

Schallenberg ruled out any changes in the treaty, saying: "The treaty will not be changed as 27 countries have accepted it." The stubbornness of president Vaclav Klaus and a group of ultra nationalist Czechs will not change what by unanimity was reached by all Europe, excepting Prague.

Any change, he added, would have to be approved by all 27 EU member states, including holding another referendum in Ireland, which is ludicrous.

The media have reported that Swedish EU Council President Fredrik Reinfeldt has said Klaus wants a footnote in the treaty that would prevent the Sudeten Germans expelled from the former Czechoslovakia after World War II from reclaiming their property. This footnote has nothing to do with what the British government had asked and was accepted by all member states of the EU.

Klaus must sign the Czech instrument of ratification in order for the Czech Republic formally to ratify it, in spite of the fact that the Parliament had endorsed the treaty. That country is the only EU member state that has not formally ratified the treaty.

The issue is expected to be discussed at the EU summit on 29 and 30 October in Brussels.

Meanwhile Spindelegger has praised Ireland's "yes" vote in a second referendum this month, saying: "This is a clear sign of confidence in Europe. Particularly during a global economic crisis, people appreciate the 'protective coat function' of the European Union and get a feeling of what the EU is worth."

Spindelegger added: "I hope that after this encouraging Irish vote it won't take long until the last steps required for the reform treaty's entry into force are taken."

"In view of the manifold challenges ranging from financial crisis to climate change, we need a still more efficient, modern and democratic Union. The Treaty of Lisbon should, therefore, enter into force before the end of this year in order to enable the EU to fully concentrate on these tasks of the future without being distracted by internal issues," he said.

Ian,
I wasn't joking, I just returned from the doctor this morning with Normix (antibiotic) in hand due to the food poisoning that I got. So after that experience..... I'm bagging all of my food from Prague when I return to Bratislava... including the soup, which is better.

Klaus is the last possible stop before this terrible rejected constitution is imposed on the people of Europe with no democratic principle in the midst of the agreement. The people of France and Holland rejected the Constitution which was rebranded and the Irish rejected the treaty before they were bribed and scared to death by depression by Brussels into saying yes.
So stay strong Czech republic - and you will get my vote in the Eurovision as a thank you as a very least of my appreciation if you can hold on for the next election in the UK when we will have a change of government who will hold a proper referendum on this disgraceful piece of legislature

Jiri using the politics of 'fear' to mask personal ideology as a form of dictation by the few over the many.

Thomas; Lisbon treaty would outlaw 'polevka diarrhea' as it is a national security risk...ohh boy..

Ian,
I just returned from Bratislava with a terrible case of diarrhea. So... Czech soup is much better, no comparison.

"Those who took the ultimate risk, crossing 'no mans land' when the Berlin Wall was up; to be shot in the back by a bullet from a ideology that pitted sister against brother. NEVER AGAIN, sign the treaty; unity not division, sign that treaty, sign that treaty, sign that treaty...."

What is "Berlin wall" have anything in common with Lisbon Treaty,Ian?
I fail to follow.

As a curiosity; which polevka is better Czech or Slovak?

"politics here is like the weather. It changes frequently (and especially from a "loser" like Klaus). Anyhow, now ihned is reporting that if the exemption to the Zaklanich prav EU (Basic EU rights) is included, Klaus will sign."

Well,we can agree at least on that one.
As to your not including Slovakia in your 30% number that is OK with me,however as you did not specify it in your previous comment it was needed to be pointed out to get a relevant number.
I wish Slovaks well in their advance to World Cup in South Afrika.I have no bad feelings for them and to those that are a little bit overboard with their "glee",I want to remind them that they are now an independent country that has a very good relationship with Czech Republic.Generally speaking,good for them.
I just wish that Quebec province in Canada can get such an amiable parting from the rest of Canada as that-if ever they succeed in their desire to leave.

Those who took the ultimate risk, crossing 'no mans land' when the Berlin Wall was up; to be shot in the back by a bullet from a ideology that pitted sister against brother. NEVER AGAIN, sign the treaty; unity not division, sign that treaty, sign that treaty, sign that treaty....

Jiri,
politics here is like the weather. It changes frequently (and especially from a "loser" like Klaus). Anyhow, now ihned is reporting that if the exemption to the Zaklanich prav EU (Basic EU rights) is included, Klaus will sign.

Jiri,
30 percent of Czech lands not Czechoslovakia. Czechoslovakia is a blip on the history timeline. I just happened to get back to Prague from Bratislava and can easily ascertain that they (the Slovaks) never wanted a relationship like that which they had with us within a now nonexistent Czechoslovakia. From everyone that I talked to (and in the press) I got the message load and clear that they never accepted "Prague's" rule over them. You should have heard the insults just for stupid things like that they're in the World Cup and we're not. So whenever I write about the Czechs or Czech lands I don't include Slovakia.

"Z některých zemí EU zaznívají obavy, že Klaus chce ratifikaci zdržovat až do příštího roku, čímž by mohl smlouvu pohřbít. Britští konzervativci totiž dávají najevo, že by o ní po svém očekávaném vítězství ve volbách mohli vypsat referendum."

From Ceske Noviny(2009 October16)

Some EU members worry that if Czech Republic won't ratify Lisbon treaty,(my own understanding of above)until next year,British conservatives will hold a referendum(if they win)on Lisbon Treaty and then it will mean the end of it.

I think that for that reason alone the President's Klaus additional clause will very likely be included in Lisbon Treaty text to make sure that ratification is done before UK election early next year.

"Isaid similar,not identical.
The principle is the same.The last part of your comment is just silly rationalization."

To add to the above.I must say that your logic is faulty.
First, you need to change your percentage from 30% to 15% and that only if you count the Austrians and Hungarians into this number(you can fight with Louis Wetzler the proportion of each).
Secondly the number of French and Grits being ejected from Algiers and India has nothing to do with the population of these countries at the time of their "odsun."It has everything with the idea that they were no longer welcomed in those countries.
And lastly,Germans left not only Czechoslovakia but also Poland,Serbia,Croatia and other East European countries.The reason is well understood even if it is now in some revisionist circles questioned.

Jiri,
your hypothesis about India, Algeria and Czech is not even similar. Czech and Germans have the same root culture which stems from Christianity. Algeria and India are worlds different from Britain or France. It was a custom for Czech Kings to marry ladies from outside of the Czech lands (mostly from German speaking ones). This was never the case with rulers of India or Algeria. Even today guys like Schwartzenburk or Otto Hapsburg have some Premysl blood. No one in India nor Algeria has any blood from the house of Plantagenet or house of Valois. Another factor that creates immense differences in your hypothesis is that fact that from a not long ago genetic study, it was found that Slavs make up less than half of todays Czech population. Centuries of immigration and intermarriage make this easily understandable. Another finding from the study was that Hungary, on the other hand, had a majority of genetic Slavs. Which is also understandable due to the fact that a relatively small amount of Magyars conquered the region which is now Hungary. Before their arrival the land was settled by Slavic tribes which due to much inferior military power were easily subjugated by the Magyars. The Slavs simply "mixed in" and adapted to the Magyar culture brought by the conquerors.

I said similar,not identical.
The principle is the same.The last part of your comment is just silly rationalization.

Jesus Christ Jiri.... what a moronic example. First of all, the Brits never had anything compared to 30 percent of the population in India. The German speaking population was 30 percent of the Czech lands. Second.... before the Slaves came to the area known as the Czech lands there were Germans already living there (here). This was not the case in India nor Algeria. And when the large waves of immigration started (in the 13th century) they happened because the Czech Kings had invited them. Also not the case with India nor Algeria. Immigration due to formal request starting in the 13th century (Germans in Czech) is much different than colonization starting in the 17th and 18th centuries (India). And the last thing.... neither in India nor Alger was their massive intermarriage. In the Czech lands... Germans and Czechs commonly intermarried. According to your hypothesis, then it was OK for Hitler to oust the Jews from the Czech lands and even today we should oust the small remainder of them that are still here because they showed up half a century later after the Slav tribes did.

After the war in Algiers,hundreds of thousands of French subjects returned to France-either forced out or voluntarily.
The same happened after India gained independency,the Brits returned to UK in great numbers-forced or not.
Both of these nations were in those countries for very long time.Not many were able to claim any substantial possesions they have in Algiers and India.
In some way,it is similar to the situation in former Czechoslovakia,Poland.Serbia and Croatia.
Germans were either forced out or left voluntarily(by hundreds of thousands in that case-voluntarily)
I am sure that there are more of examples in Africa countries that expelled the European population in their independence drives.

Klaus is rapidly becoming a right wing dictator and is completely out of step with his European neighbours

I see no reason to have any sympathy for the Sudeten Germans. Yes, they suffered hardships, death and dislocation; but they were not systematically shipped to extermination camps. They were sent to Germany, with which they identified and which they supported against the Czechoslovak State. And, who started WWII? The Beneš decrees must stand.

Klaus is a great man and a great patriot. He is perfectly correct in being very careful in giving up Czech sovereignty to Soviet Europe. I find it laughable that unelected politicians in Brussels now threaten to withhold certain "rights' from the Czech Republic to punish the country for Klaus' actions. If every politician were as principled as Klaus the world not just the Czech Republic would be a far, far better place.

Se lo chiede un italiano, che guarda all'Europa come un' ancora di salvezza riguardo ai diritti civili, all'etica, alla libert? di parola.
Il sig. Klaus firmer??

I never got the chance to study the art's , duty, diligence; figures and facts with real responsibility was a tough taskmaster. Now I get the recognition I deserve; those left wing bums know nothing of true responsibility.
Empathy for someone I genuinely like; tough, uncompromising, but maybe too stubborn. No doubt I can learn from this man; despite my opposition.